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The Wife and the Car
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Ive been trying to hunt down a cam card for my recently purchased BISI Cam.
Im not sure if its ethical or "proper" to share the info they gave me.
But the way I look at it its far from being enough to install and dial in a cam.

I would like to see a discussion about what you guys consider a proper cam card.

What is the info that should be included with every cam purchased in order to install and dial in a cam.

I am attaching a sample cam card from Crower. This is what I consider a Cam card. And these are the key parameters one needs.

An professional cam card should carry the following information.

First to dial in the cam you need:

A.The duration at a fixed tappet lift. it can be .4,.5, or .6 it doesn't matter but you need a reference height and duration. On the crower cam example you can see the data clearly defined to help you dial in your cam.

B.. You need the recommended spring seat pressure numbers for valve fully open and valve closed. On the Crower they have provided the numbers as 50-55 pounds and 185-190 pounds. A professional company will always provide this info. An unprofessional company will just say buy our springs.


C. If using the lobe center line method of degreing a cam. Then the intake center line number must be provided.

D. A diagram showing the durations is also included with most professionally designed cams.

E. If it is a Vtec Cam. Then durations for both intake lobes must be mentioned. I have samples from other Vtec cams that can be posted if you want.

F. The Rocker Arm Ration must be mentioned.

Somebody please correct me if I have missed out on anything.
Also if somebody who has purchased a Bisi Cam. Did you receive a proper cam card with it. Along the lines of what has been outlined above.

Randy your a member here. Maybe you can follow up on this and send out a proper cam card. At least to those who have purchased cams as part of the group buy.

All we need is enough data to install the cam.

Id like other members to put forth their views on what we want / expect from guys making cams. And if my post is un-reasonable in any way.

Ps:
Cynide has picked up a Delta Cam. very impressed with their cam data / support. They give you a print out direct from Cam Doctor. With the complete profile. While I dont think you need to go that far. It sure is a big help.
 

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Ps:
Cynide has picked up a Delta Cam. very impressed with their cam data / support. They give you a print out direct from Cam Doctor. With the complete profile. While I dont think you need to go that far. It sure is a big help.
The great thing is that Ken gave me the specs and scans of cam analyzer even before I had made up my mind to go with them. This is my first aftermarket cam so I assumed you'd get this much info with every cam since I know Crower, Comp and the rest include the regular cam cards anyways. I assume all Bisi customers get the same cam sheet that you guys in the group-buy got.
 

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Which aftermarket cams should have these? When I talked to the guys at Delta, they made it sound like their cams didn't need one. And I asked him to include one anyways, and he said he would but it wouldn't be correct for the timing of the engine.
 

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Which aftermarket cams should have these? When I talked to the guys at Delta, they made it sound like their cams didn't need one. And I asked him to include one anyways, and he said he would but it wouldn't be correct for the timing of the engine.
It's like buying a set of forged pistons which are advertised as 75mm bore. They don't give you the compression height, the dome volume, the piston pin diameter or even the resulting compression ratio. You can run the pistons since the installation is simple enough, but you don't know anything else about the pistons.

From my limited experience gained by reading and talking to a lot of people, all aftermarket cams come with a cam card. The pic posted by rdc above is what one looks like. That is enough info to not only install the cam, but to a trained eye, it can tell the difference between 2 similar cams without a dyno pull or a simulation as long as both are measured at the same lift.

With a piston, it is easy to measure the missing info. With a cam, measuring the lift, duration, etc can take a professional a couple of days if done by hand.
 

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Web Cam Inc. - Performance and Racing Camshafts

Call these guys. They might be able to help. I'm not sure what cam you guys got, but they use to make Bisi's cams. They might still make his cams. There is a picture of his Wagovan on there site. Debbie is really nice. She might be able to help. Web camshafts was recomended to me by James Innes with IPG-Supertech. I've been looking to them for a little help.
 

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It's like buying a set of forged pistons which are advertised as 75mm bore. They don't give you the compression height, the dome volume, the piston pin diameter or even the resulting compression ratio. You can run the pistons since the installation is simple enough, but you don't know anything else about the pistons.

From my limited experience gained by reading and talking to a lot of people, all aftermarket cams come with a cam card. The pic posted by rdc above is what one looks like. That is enough info to not only install the cam, but to a trained eye, it can tell the difference between 2 similar cams without a dyno pull or a simulation as long as both are measured at the same lift.

With a piston, it is easy to measure the missing info. With a cam, measuring the lift, duration, etc can take a professional a couple of days if done by hand.
Ahhh. ok I think I get it. Thanks! Hopefully I can make it work in my simple mini-me.
 

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I have been trying to get the proper info on my Bisi level two cam since June of 2009. Randy has no clue as to what we are asking for and he does not seem to care that this information is vital in dialing in the cam. He has totally pissed everyone off at onecamonly.com and I doubt highly that Bisi will see any more business from anyone on that forum. I know for damned sure he will never get any more of my business!!

Customer service at Bisimoto just f'ing SUCKS!!!
 

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I have been trying to get the proper info on my Bisi level two cam since June of 2009. Randy has no clue as to what we are asking for and he does not seem to care that this information is vital in dialing in the cam. He has totally pissed everyone off at onecamonly.com and I doubt highly that Bisi will see any more business from anyone on that forum. I know for damned sure he will never get any more of my business!!

Customer service at Bisimoto just f'ing SUCKS!!!
:(

Not what I wanted to hear.
 

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Classic Man
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If you dont have one of these
http://album.hybridz.org/data/500/Degree_Wheel.JPG
and a dial indicator and a steady base...


dont buy cams...you're just an idiot for lining up the the timing marks and calling it good

btw...information I used for my Crower Stage 2 Turbo Cam.
Crower Cams & Equipment - Camshaft Specification Card


while i totally agree, my grinder Geoff @ colt cams told me NOT to use an adjustable cam gear and just line i up to TDC. i asked him about degreeing it and he said "if it doesnt blow you away out of the box, you can try messing around with it. but i doubt you will find gains"

i thought it was kind of weird for him to say so, but meh. i cant complain when i carry torque up to 9000rpm and maybe even past that. (never tried)
 

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while i totally agree, my grinder Geoff @ colt cams told me NOT to use an adjustable cam gear and just line i up to TDC. i asked him about degreeing it and he said "if it doesnt blow you away out of the box, you can try messing around with it. but i doubt you will find gains"

i thought it was kind of weird for him to say so, but meh. i cant complain when i carry torque up to 9000rpm and maybe even past that. (never tried)
Very Interesting.

Perhaps different manufacturers set their cams up differently.

Which cam are you using btw?
 

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I emailed Hedi. I told her that they need to do something or they are going to lose a lot of business.
 

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If a cam grinder would not supply the info that is on the Crower card, I would not deal with them. Saying it is confidential and their IP is just a bullshit blow off.

While they may have spent time and development money developing the grind, they at least started their development program copying someone else's cam, so claiming the moral high ground is a bit doubtful at best.

Also re IP it is a pointless exercise to be secretive anyway. Any grinder can use an intermediary to buy competitors cams and run them up on a cam doctor or something similar. It is very common practice to do so.

It is unethical of Bisis grinder to disclose which cam Bisi buys from him and it may or may not be unethical for him to sell an identical grind, depending on who paid for the original development work. If Bisi just bought one of his cams, they are still his unless a contract says otherwise. If Bisi supplied the specs and the grinder produced to Bisis specs, the specs are Bisis and that grinder should not use those specs for anyone other than Bisi, including himself. The difference is Bisi provided that info in confidence.

Whilst the Crower card above gives every bit of info you could possibly need to install and tune a cam, it still lacks some very important detail needed to grind a cam, so they give their customers what they need but not their competitors.

Almost all the info on that cam card can be got in less than an hour if you have an engine in a stand and degree wheel set up to fit and a pair of long travel dial indicators set up to fit. If you have to jury rig or make brackets etc for pointers and dial indicator bases, of course it takes a lot longer.

If the engine is set up in a stand with a degree wheel and two dial indicators as above it takes two people about two hours to do a full graph plotted at 10 deg intervals. I normally do 5 deg intervals for the nose and ramps where the rate keeps changing, but 20 deg intervals for the flanks where the rate is steady.

Plotting a cam is a lot easier with two people. One to turn the engine and one to measure and record.

The installer cannot measure what valve spring pressures are needed. The grinder should specify that and he should indicate your starting point re degree settings.

Every good grinder I have used will recommend where to set it by intake valve lift or by degrees from split overlap. If they are real good they ask your application then make their recommendation. The only times I ever needed to change from their first recommendation was for different tracks if racing around corners or for very unusual weight or gearing if drag racing. Normally if the grinder is good, it should be as Dan days.
 
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