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(S.O.S) D16Y7 CRANK NO START. :(

3K views 41 replies 7 participants last post by  slo_eg8 
#1 ·
Good evening.

(2000) D16Y7 CIVIC COUPE [DX] MANUAL
301780 KM


///////////////////////

Few weeks ago car broke down due to clutch failure. Had it towed to a friend's place of which I am currently residing for the time being— on his driveway (no garage).
Also, my friend lives out of town in another small (shit) town with some 5000 residents. My friend has no vehicle either so you can imagine what I am up against.
With limited tools and insufficient funds, I knew replacing the clutch wasn't going to be an easy job, as I also have not done anything very involved on a Honda before. I am used to Volkswagen/Audi.

Fast forward I finally get the new clutch in and I have a crank (no start) condition. O.K;
Spark ........ Check ✓ | via spark plug & plug wire

Fuel ......... Check ✓ | can hear the pump prime itself while ACC is On

Air/Compression* ....
Check ✓

*Note: I have not actually checked for compression with a comp. tester, however the day that the tow truck arrived with the car I was able to successfully turn it over and get it running (rough) pre-teardown —so this will remain as an educated guess (lol) until I find my tester


What the hell.
Hmmm. I can literally guarantee that I put the clutch in the right way, I used the alignment tool that came with the kit (from LUK I believe) and it worked perfectly. Even if I did put it in backwards, the car would still start, no? Did a quick search and I noticed that I forgot to reinstall the transmission-to-chassis ground. Install that— still no start. Im sort of stumped at this point. It must be something simple that I've overlooked. I pull the spark plugs and am basically cleaning/sanding them with a wire brush, threading them in, crank engine. get out. walk to the front of the vehicle. pulling them out again. clean them.... (You get the idea)

As I'm cleaning them, Im sort of looking at the SKU's more intently each time I do this.
Yeah, that's right these are the colder plugs I tried out since that number is different than the—wait.

I managed to mismatch two of the plugs with two old ones I had kicking around in my toolbox for my old Jetta. Embarrassed, yet relieved. I look around and quickly find the other, correct, matching plugs. Ok whatever, at least I know what my problem was. Put the plugs in, get in the driver's seat, turn the key, aaand with one heave, the starter stops turning. No big deal, just have to charge the battery for a minute and then I should be golden.

I cook supper with the battery charger on the posts and come back, alright let's do this. Keys in ignition, aand absolutely no response from the car electrical-wise whatsoever.
Long story short we determined that the charger was bad and fried my Interstate battery. My friend pulls an absolute solid and gives me another Interstate battery and luckily he also has another, more stable, less amperage charger in the house. I connect the charger to the new battery before I put it in the car to make sure everything's ok. While that was charging, I went to the fuse panel near drivers feet and removed and inspected EVERY SINGLE FUSE in there......

Check ✓

Install battery. Got power back. Turn it over, still no start!! Man this is getting frustrating. Any suggestions?
 
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#2 ·
Living on the brink of a Psychotic Breakdown— a case study

Good evening.

(2000) D16Y7 CIVIC COUPE [DX] MANUAL
301780 KM


///////////////////////

Few weeks ago car broke down due to clutch failure. Had it towed to a friend's place of which I am currently residing for the time being— on his driveway (no garage).
Also, my friend lives out of town in another small (shit) town with some 5000 residents. My friend has no vehicle either so you can imagine what I am up against.
With limited tools and insufficient funds, I knew replacing the clutch wasn't going to be an easy job, as I also have not done anything very involved on a Honda before. I am used to Volkswagen/Audi.

Fast forward I finally get the new clutch in and I have a crank (no start) condition. O.K;
Spark ........ Check ✓ | via spark plug & plug wire

Fuel ......... Check ✓ | can hear the pump prime itself while ACC is On

Air/Compression* ....
Check ✓

*Note: I have not actually checked for compression with a comp. tester, however the day that the tow truck arrived with the car I was able to successfully turn it over and get it running (rough) pre-teardown —so this will remain as an educated guess (lol) until I find my tester


What the hell.
Hmmm. I can literally guarantee that I put the clutch in the right way, I used the alignment tool that came with the kit (from LUK I believe) and it worked perfectly. Even if I did put it in backwards, the car would still start, no? Did a quick search and I noticed that I forgot to reinstall the transmission-to-chassis ground. Install that— still no start. Im sort of stumped at this point. It must be something simple that I've overlooked. I pull the spark plugs and am basically cleaning/sanding them with a wire brush, threading them in, crank engine. get out. walk to the front of the vehicle. pulling them out again. clean them.... (You get the idea)

As I'm cleaning them, Im sort of looking at the SKU's more intently each time I do this.
Yeah, that's right these are the colder plugs I tried out since that number is different than the—wait.

I managed to mismatch two of the plugs with two old ones I had kicking around in my toolbox for my old Jetta. Embarrassed, yet relieved. I look around and quickly find the other, correct, matching plugs. Ok whatever, at least I know what my problem was. Put the plugs in, get in the driver's seat, turn the key, aaand with one heave, the starter stops turning. No big deal, just have to charge the battery for a minute and then I should be golden.

I cook supper with the battery charger on the posts and come back, alright let's do this. Keys in ignition, aand absolutely no response from the car electrical-wise whatsoever.
Long story short we determined that the charger was bad and fried my Interstate battery. My friend pulls an absolute solid and gives me another Interstate battery and luckily he also has another, more stable, less amperage charger in the house. I connect the charger to the new battery before I put it in the car to make sure everything's ok. While that was charging, I went to the fuse panel near drivers feet and removed and inspected EVERY SINGLE FUSE in there......

Check ✓

Install battery. Got power back. Turn it over, still no start!! Man this is getting frustrating. Any suggestions?
 
#5 ·
Thank F**K!
Someone with an issue, that actually wrote a proper, Technical bit, to communicate with us.
So first things first, Thank you.

1. Oldcivicjoe speaks the truth on Fuel pumps, and not just for Civic's.

2. Though not all your symptoms relate directly to this, but:
-Remove your Main Relay, give it a few taps with the back of a screwdriver, and re-connect, give starting a try.
-Or, swap it with a spare from another running vehicle.
Try to rule that thing out. When they fail, it is almost always intermittent.

3. Anything involved with a Clutch job, that would cause this issue, you have already checked and re-checked.
Starting to think maybe this is a separate issue, only coincidental to happening when you did the clutch..
 
#6 ·
Take jumper cables, create two grounds with both pairs.


transmission casing and chassis on one end, the other ends, clip both to battery negative.


This doubles the chassis grounds, and provides a clean new ground for the transmission.


If the car fires up and runs fine after doing this, simply get a new ground wire for the battery and for the transmission. factory location is bolted to the lift bracket of the transmission.
 
#7 ·
I appreciate the suggestions guys. This is super shitty cause it's me and my girls only way of transportation and being stuck in this town is driving us a little nuts hahaha. I have literally been working on this thing all night and day for the past little while, resting for a day or two every now and then. Im not the kind to give up very easily (stubborn) until I know 100 percent what's going on.

So about the fuel pump— this very car has left me and girl stranded on a different occasion for a couple days due to the main relay shitting the bed so I understand what you are saying in that it can be deceiving/finicky in terms of operation and troubleshooting.

To rule this out I took the line off of the fuel rail and stuck it into a bottle to see if fuel was infact making it's way to the injectors when cranking. I can confirm that it is working properly.

I also found my compression tester and did a quick test of the cylinder(s). When I tested Cylinder No 1, I got a lousy 50psi. I still continued to test the remaining which were all pretty much 112psi. I then tested No 1 again , and then I got 112 like the rest of them. Maybe I didn't screw it in all the way? Not too sure why that happened but oh well.

I ended up taking out the fuel rail completely and meticulously cleaned the injectors and soaked them in a bath of injector cleaner, put it all back together and still no start.

Sucks because I have to stop to recharge my battery every so often from cranking the engine this much. By the way I am checking the plugs every so often as well to ensure that they're not being flooded or fouling and cleaning them as needed.

I should also mention that when I am cranking, it feels like it's right there, wanting to fire, giving a little 'shake' — at random, but no start. I almost want to say I can hear a little 'clunk' as well when cranking.

I had enough of this and tried to push start it yesterday and when I jumped in (yes with the key in the on position), I'd get it into second gear, engage the clutch no problem but when I let my foot off the clutch, it would come to an immediate halt. Like I didn't even really have enough time to re-engage the clutch a second time— that's how fast. And I've push started this thing by myself on flat ground, a few times. So I know that I'm not doing it wrong. There just isn't that UMPH to get it to start!! It's like its dead. I even carefully adjusted the valve lash and still no start.

i think I will try the thing mattliston suggested. Will update if I figure anything out. Thanks again

Thanks for the replies.



Can you explain a little more on exactly how you do this? Saying create two grounds on both pairs just made me blow a brain cell hahahaha
 
#10 ·
Take jumper cables, create two grounds with both pairs.


transmission casing and chassis on one end, the other ends, clip both to battery negative.


This doubles the chassis grounds, and provides a clean new ground for the transmission.

I thought I spelled it out pretty well the first time. do I need to draw it with crayons?


reading > you
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Georgia Eg
#8 ·
red to negative. black to negative. red to transmission. black to shock tower mount/core support/fender bolt/whatever clean chassis bolt
 
#20 ·
Dude just kick rocks if you can't bare to elaborate more than two sentences. Lol hence the "Nevermind" that I said before.

Reading > you

both pairs would imply that there are two pairs. Lol dumba**
dumbass why the censor?

Jumper cables have a PAIR of clamps on each end, therefore there are in fact 2 Pairs.
Perhaps you should go to Reddit.

then you ignored this gem of a post lol.
 
#13 ·
Think of it like a letter H with the tops held together, like the acura badge. One pair of single red and single black, clip both to the battery negative.

Take the other pair, one black to the transmission, one to the chassis somewhere, whether it be a strut mounting bolt, the old original 10mm ground bolt facing the transmission side torque mount, or just something clean.



If it does not pop off when push starting, you need to try and fire it with brake cleaner or carb cleaner.


If still nothing, you got something going on.

Use 1st to pop start. I dont care if you feel it lunges hard, it will bring the engine rpms high enough to start if everything else is good to go.


I have had weak starters where it semms like it is ready to pop, but it just cannot quite get high enough. Pop starting in 1st down a hill got it going.
 
#16 ·
If it does not pop off when push starting, you need to try and fire it with brake cleaner or carb cleaner.
I have tried using starter fluid thru the intake and it didn't seem to affect anything whatsoever.


The idea of the timing being advanced has been lingering in the back of my mind for a while now. Seems like that's what it could be pointing to.

It just doesn't make sense because before I replaced the clutch I started the vehicle without much difficulty, and it never moved an inch (other than onto jack stands) since then. But I guess the why doesn't really matter. After all i do have a brand new timing belt waiting to be on put on cause I knew it was inevitable.

If the timing was a couple teeth retarded or advanced, is that enough to screw things up for good? I want to be sure because I don't want to replace the timing belt just to find out it was a waste of time..

Last car I did exactly that— stranded at a truck stop for almost a fckn week and ended up calling the wreckers anyway. I'd rather not recreate the experience.

Well if I had a fuel gauge I would use it but I don't so I have to resort to other methods. Fuel came shooting into the bottle pretty fast so I think that's enough to tell that it's not the relay if I can also hear it priming too. And when I crack the nut on the fuel rail , gas will spray out, so it's fair to say there's pressure.

I've looked into the spark plug holes and can almost see markings from valves in the top of the pistons. It's looking sort of grim at this point.

Maybe I'll record a video/audio and post it today for anyone who wants to get a better idea at what's happening
 
#23 ·
You have one or more dead holes.
EDIT dead holes to me simply means no compression or very low. Like if a valve was getting stuck open, lash adjustment too darn tight, or a plug not sealing the chamber. Or camshaft 180 out of time.

Time to remove the cylinder head.


For now, yank the valvecover, check valve lash, make sure you are doing it the LONG way. Not the short cut method of one cylinder, intake of another, and exhaust of another. Check each cylinder one at a time.

Even if you were off 2 teeth, the engine would TRY to fire. Ive been down this road many times, having 1 or 2 teeth off. If the engien fires, it generally will run like dog shit, but it will run.


What do the spark plugs look like? Are they tightened up? Are they cracked or broken?


If by valve-looking markings on pistons, are you sure you are not seeing the valve relief cuts that are in nearly all of honda's pistons? even the flat-top d15b2/b7 pistons have little reliefs


Your engine doesnt sound like it is even trying to pop. You might have fuel, but bad injectors. Or too low pressure.


Take spark plugs out, check valve lash, and run the starter without the plugs, and see if it sounds comparable.
 
#24 ·
OK yes maybe (hopefully) those marks are just the reliefs you're talking about.

I 100 percent did the valve lash just like you described, doing both the intake & exhaust at each cylinder. I took my time and made sure that if I could get my 0.07 feeler gauge to slide in on the intake, I could not get the 0.08 between. Same with 0.09 and 0.10 on exhaust. Double checking after tightening as well.

Some of them were super tight and others were loose, so I guess the lash needed to be done anyway.

As for the plugs they're sort of fouling.??? Im cleaning them constantly because when I take them out they are soaked in petrol. Not every time though, just when I've been cranking it a few times in a row like I did in the video. But yes somewhat turning black every now and then.

I forgot to mention these plugs that I am using are 1 level colder, meaning the number indicating the 'hotness' is higher than the usual plugs that are used. I tried these out because on a different occasion when checking the plugs one of them were completely cooked, a little deformed. So I tried these ones to experiment a little. Hadn't changed them since. Maybe this has something to do with it you think?? But it ran fine before with them in there.
 
#25 ·
stock heat range is generally best with stock power. NGK 5's or Denso 20's

Have you had a chance to swap out the ignitiom coil, ignition control module, or at least check the distributor cap, rotor, and internal wiring harness?

Fuel soaked plugs means the injectors are doing their job.

I strongly suggest moving into proper spark checking territory. You might have spark, but is it strong? the right timing? consistent or intermittent?
 
#26 ·
That's a good point because when I checked spark my mindset was just based on 'is there spark, or is there no spark'.

In hindsight I remember sort of thinking why the amount of time between each arch was taking longer than usual, but I didn't think much of it since I was just looking for confirmation, like I said.

I have read up and heard about how the ICM's can be pretty deceiving and can behave abnormal enough to confuse anybody who isn't familiar (this guy).

I'll have to go back to one of 'oldskoolfunk's videos on this problem and dive in. That man has saved me so much money and is the reason why I haven't been to any dealer in the last 6 years. Shout-out to him.

Thanks for the help. Will update in a few days probably because acquiring a new ICM or distributor (possibly) is going to be a mission of its own. Cheers
 
#28 ·
go to your profile settings on here, make sure you can read signatures, and follow the link for the 96-00 civics in my signature.

They are the same test as for 92-95 cars.
 
#29 ·
Alright a month later here's what happened.

I had a buddy of mine come help me try to figure out whats going on with this thing, he claims to know a little bit about cars and a lot of the time hes fixing vehicles (or so he says) and I was getting pretty close to imploding at this point. I just needed a second opinion.

Anyway we get to it and it doesnt take long to realize that hes a bit stubborn and doesnt like to be told how things are done, or just has a listening problem. Sure enough we're sort of butting heads a little and while we're doing the timing, im just giving him the rundown of the timing marks, where they are, where to look, etc. But it doesn't really seem like he's listening. Like as if he doesn't believe what I'm saying is directly from the service manual. i mean hes literally all over the place, slipping the belt off, moving a tooth over, prying it back on and turning the engine oover. This is how he was trying to set the timing. At this point ive written the car off in my head and just so done i dont even care, just watching in amusement.

Surprisingly enough, he managed to 'start' it. It did not stay running by itself and it sounded like a diesel engine. Just horrible. I said man look its obviously got bent valves, youre just beating a dead horse. This did nothing but make him more determined to get it started. "Im gonna get that car started. Just watch"

So when he left for the night I was so sick and tired of this piece of shit car so before I was about to literally set it aflame I just said fuck it and pulled the head. All eight enhaust valves were bent. Some had chunks of carbon built up.

So I bent them back, re lapped them, gave the entire valvetrain a good clean, slapped it back on the block and she purrs. Great. So today i take it out for a test drive and a coolant hose ends up popping off and it overheats a little before I quickly pull over, losing all coolant. Stranded for a little while till someone helped me out with a jug of it.

Fixed the hose, but still it's on the verge of overheating. Also it's been stalling nearly at every red light/stop i make, with the oil pressure light flickering as it shudders right before the engine turns off. The light is NOT solid, it's not constant. Just flickering as it stalls. I notice some surging while cruising — regardless of speed or gear aswell. Could these symptoms indicate a bad oil pump? My oil pan does have a pretty bad dent in it, so i just finished pulling that off and might try to bend it back. Maybe its just the pan?

Opinions?

Thanks
 
#30 ·
The light should flicker as the engine stalls out, rpms drop, so does oil pressure, when it gets to that 3 or 5 psi threshold the light comes on, that's around 300 rpms, right where an over heated, unsealed head gasket honda with air in the coolant likes to stutter before dieing at a light. Go snag valves from a junkyard, send the head out for surfacing and a valve job, use copper spray on the gasket, both sides, new head bolts are likely in order as well. Do it right and you likely won't have more issues for a good long while.
 
#32 ·
Okay well I glad I'm not the only one that thought the torque ratings seemed a little low. I did oil the bolts with clean oil , then wiped them with a rag before doing it, so they weren't dripping.

I remember working in a tire shop couple years ago and in the orientation one of the videos explained why you should never oil lug nuts for that it skyrockets the torque rating in an unstable way. That's what was going thru my mind while torquing these but thought may As well do it by the book until I know otherwise.

So thanks for confirming that I'm going to head outside and do that right away and let you know what happens. Thanks



Not to sound snobby but I did do it right. I resurfaced the head and everything myself. I took my time (it's been a month) and didn't miss anything. I also have done it before. If I was able to, I would however go and do all those things you mentioned, but I'm in a shifty situation with no money and or ride into the city. And I'm miles out. This is my only hope outta here lol. No joke.
 
#31 ·
If you followed the honda tech manual, there is a chance you have the head bolts far too loose


Honda wants a LOW torque spec due to them also saying to OIL the underside of the bolt head, and oil the threads. Oiled threads means it has similar torque at say 45 pounds wet as possibly 60 pounds dry. Numbers out my ass, but the point is made.



Basically Im saying to go torque the head bolts another 45-90 degrees and see if it quits trying to stall out.
 
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