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Curious George
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Discussion Starter #21
DseriesScience ,

Well, What is the advice for us in shorter term ?

try it with moderation ? Never try ? Anything else is better ?

thanx
 
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The Idea is....

Belette said:
DseriesScience ,

Well, What is the advice for us in shorter term ?

try it with moderation ? Never try ? Anything else is better ?

thanx
To look for the greatest bang for the buck. If you read what I posted yesterday in reply to your situation, you will note some ideas that have more potential. In general:

1) The danger is real the seat dyno feel is an illusion
2) Once something is clean, it can not be made more than clean. Performance from clean valves, cylinders and exhaust ports is what you feel in the seat dyno. Incidently, deposits built up in your engine INCREASE the aparent ANI needed.
3) Decreased volatility is not necessarily decreased resistance to preignition nor increased power production potential.
4) Increased ANI is not "better" than what you can use -regarless of what it is- detonation free.
5) What you buy at the Home Depot is not as inexpensive as you might think. Aside from the all too real risk of fire, these chemicals are industrial grade and hence full of contaminants. Not that they themselves are not contaminants in the first place. Even if you could get 2,2,4 trimethyl pentane there, any industrial grade chemical is -of necesity- different than the reagent grade that is used to test as a reference mixture.
6) IF you must absolutely increase the ANI then check the temperature where you live. If it does not get above 75, experiment with MTBE. If it does then use the MMT.
7) Keep track of things like ambient temperature,barometric pressure, intake temperature, air fuel ratio, diference between intake and exhaust port temperature, difference between header primaries and exhaust temp, and match that all with reading plugs and a gtech or similar gismo. In the data there is performance. Conversely, if you see something that is off, fix it and you may find a horse here or there.

I hope this helps a bit but read the posts and comment, discuss, argue; as I said before, in the unhindered discussion everyone's knowledge grows.
 

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the MAD scientist
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DsS, you should be an ENGINEER instead of messing around with that bio stuff!
:razz:
Very interesting material!! I definitely would avoid any additives that could dissolve fuel system components.

Has anybody been crazy enough to use a SMALL percentage of nitromethane? I know it has a higher tendency to pre-ignite so that may be an issue as well as combustion temperatures. However nitromethane has a very high BTU rating because it essentially has a built in oxidizer, kinda like running nitrous, all the time.
 
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thought about it....

mikeD16Z6 said:
DsS, you should be an ENGINEER instead of messing around with that bio stuff!
:razz:
Very interesting material!! I definitely would avoid any additives that could dissolve fuel system components.

Has anybody been crazy enough to use a SMALL percentage of nitromethane? I know it has a higher tendency to pre-ignite so that may be an issue as well as combustion temperatures. However nitromethane has a very high BTU rating because it essentially has a built in oxidizer, kinda like running nitrous, all the time.
I have thought about it but it would appear that I would need to either do it in the winter and use gobs of MTBE or get my hands on a large quantity of MMT because the aparent decrease in ANI from the nitromethane is greater than the gain for almost anything I can think of to increase the MON. That being said, a clean (spotless) engine (inside) with an intake charge that is somehow cooled (a lot) would produce gobs more power with a relatively small amount of nitromethane and it would be altitude independent to boot. Now, if one could get a hold of fuel mixed with some amount X of nitromethane and MTBE , at least in the winter, one could easily see significant improvement in power output but one single preignition event and given the nature of the fuel, one would be rebuilding an engine.
 

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the MAD scientist
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I wonder how the hell those top fuel dragsters tune running nitromethane-methanol, supercharger, and nitrous? I know the motors last only one race but STILL!

Maybe you could mix some nitromethane in a water injection setup.
 

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7thGear said:
also i dont know if anyone ever told you, but your writing style is superb!! While not an author myself by anymeans i can certainly appreciate a good peice of writing when i see it!
While the content is superb, the writing style actually needs some work. Try using a period now and then ;)

I can't add much since most of this is chemical engineering not chemistry (BIG difference... I don't think I've ever used BTUs). But I'd like to point out the myth that Arco gas is crappy because it's cheaper. Well, it's cheaper because they refine it locally (or used to in California at least). My father, being a chemical engineer and a consultant to oil/tanker companies, claims that their gas is just as good. I can only take his word for it since I don't know what their exact refining process is.
 
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makku said:
While the content is superb, the writing style actually needs some work. Try using a period now and then ;)

.
I rather like 7th gear's assesment better :) I do have a penchant for the compound sentence but there ARE plenty of periods. incidently, I would have thought that MMT would be right up your alley?!
 

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Without reading the literature... I can only guess how it works... by lowering the pressure of the fuel/o2 mixture in the cylinder before ignition. The fuel or O2 (probably O2) combines with the MMT to make 1 molecule (instead of having 2) and then you'll have less molecules contributing to the pressure. Everybody remember PV=nRT from high school chemistry??? This is just a wild guess though.

[edit] now i'm not so sure... i thought it was a methyl group on the manganese... apparently it is a methyl on the cyclopentadienyl ring. So CO insertion would be rather difficult. Still, it's not too crowded to say an additional ligand wouldn't attach.

Still carbonyl compounds are not too safe in the lab (most of them are pyrophoric... meaning they catch fire spontaneously in air), and while I'm not sure about a manganese carbonyl compound, I wouldn't want to be breathing in the stuff. Plus, like lead additives it will clog your o2 sensor and catalytic converter.
 

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MMT - not too safe

Yeah, check this out... you canadians are gonna get cancer :) And the men will be sterile!

This is the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for MMT. I have no idea how stable it is (will it be completely destroyed in the combustion process? it's only a gas at 230 C) so if some of it does get out through the exhaust, you guys are in trouble. Enjoy!

Section 3 - Hazards Identification
EMERGENCY OVERVIEW
Highly Toxic (USA) Toxic (EU).
Toxic by inhalation, in contact with skin and if swallowed.
Limited evidence of a carcinogenic effect.
Readily absorbed through skin. Possible carcinogen. Target
organ(s): Lungs. Nerves.

SIGNS AND SYMPTOMS OF EXPOSURE
Men exposed to manganese dusts showed a decrease in fertility. Chronic manganese poisoning primarily involves the central
nervous system. Early symptoms include languor, sleepiness and
weakness in the legs. A stolid mask-like appearance of the face,
emotional disturbances such as uncontrollable laughter and a
spastic gait with tendency to fall in walking are findings in
more advanced cases. High incidence of pneumonia has been found
in workers exposed to the dust or fume of some manganese
compounds.

DISCLAIMER
For R&D use only. Not for drug, household or other uses.
 

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this shit makes me want to forget about screwing around with cars and go back to human resource management.

past the mechanical nuts and bolts, in todays day and age chemestry and invisible physics seperates the tuning world

i'm pretty sure the guys that put together F1 cars are playing with like a billion more factors than I/E/H

:)

planning on getting a mechanical engineering degree right after my BA in business... call me crazy!!
 

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My advice... unless you're loaded... get your degree part time and start working! I wish I had money :( But definitely, more school is always a good thing. Go for it!
 
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makku said:
Without reading the literature... I can only guess how it works... by lowering the pressure of the fuel/o2 mixture in the cylinder before ignition. The fuel or O2 (probably O2) combines with the MMT to make 1 molecule (instead of having 2) and then you'll have less molecules contributing to the pressure. Everybody remember PV=nRT from high school chemistry??? This is just a wild guess though.

[edit] now i'm not so sure... i thought it was a methyl group on the manganese... apparently it is a methyl on the cyclopentadienyl ring. So CO insertion would be rather difficult. Still, it's not too crowded to say an additional ligand wouldn't attach.

Still carbonyl compounds are not too safe in the lab (most of them are pyrophoric... meaning they catch fire spontaneously in air), and while I'm not sure about a manganese carbonyl compound, I wouldn't want to be breathing in the stuff. Plus, like lead additives it will clog your o2 sensor and catalytic converter.
I was aware that MMT is neurotoxic although aparently only when inhaled in large molar concentrations (dont run your car in a closed garage) suposedly the EPA aproved it because of this rather interesting situation where environmental concentration (food chain) does not seem to appear and that the only side effect of its usage is increased environmental manganese which is, oddly enough, an essential mineral for nerve function.
From what I have seen thus far, the problem with sensors seems confined to ODB III mostly (there are some papers on the EPA website) unlike tetra ethyl lead which was a problem even for the clunkers in the 50's. Incidently, the TEtPb problem wasn't as acute when the lead stayed in the engines, it became a problem with the adition of 1,2 dibromo ethane which removed the deposits by forming 2 lead bromide molecules as a product of combustion that then came out in the exhaust to poison everything.

If Makku is correct and MMT lowers the intracylinder pressure then it is also lowering power output which is certainly a major problem for all of us. Now, the question becomes by how much as oposed to how much a given quantity raises the ANI. For some of you this might be an acceptable compromise.
Hey Dog! Put some physics into this....If a copper plate is inserted between the headers and the head will it move heat away from the head fast enough to allow overwraping the headers to increase exhaust temperature and the intake exhaust side temp diferential? the idea being that with the phenolic gasket on the intake, this would make more efficient use of the energy already in the fuel?
 

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I'll testify that toluene works as a band-aid to the detonation problem. I'll have to take DSS's vast scientific knowlege as proof that it will erode my fuel system though.

In my case, power has no doubt reached an all time high, but that is because the J&S Safeguard isn't pulling all kinds of timing out as a reaction to what the knock sensor is hearing (or not hearing, rather). Ideally, a liquid/air sandwich intercooler is what I need (read: LHT if they are still making them). In the short run, higher octane fuel is cheaper though.

Isn't 11.5:1 AF a bit rich? At 11.anything my car looked like a diesel under full throttle acceleration. Mine is currently tuned to 12.5:1, the ballpark AF for FI.
 
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in reply to some conjectures...

I am not denying that it will stop detonation as both xylene and toluene have -just on first principles- a good structure for slow and steady burn. The thrust of my message refers to the initial impetus of this thread which was that there was more power to be found by adding either in a rather haphazard way and with a very poor understanding of the mathematics involved in the mixing of solutions.
The Power they felt is due to the removal of deposits from all sorts of surfaces in the fuel system. The power you feel is due to mostly two factors. First, the lack of any preignition event means that the ecu is not working against you. Second, the continual removal of deposits means that your engine experiences a reduction in the aparent ANI it needs.
You might also consider that because you tunned your engine with a lower specific gravity fluid, the result of mixing N-xylene or N-toluene into an amount of fuel X, your A/F is now very much out of the range for pump gas. TJ, whatever you do, DO NOT GO RIGHT BACK TO PUMP GAS WITHOUT RETUNING!!!this is very important as the higher spec grav of the unmixed pump gas will yield a hyper lean condition. As you probably know, FI requires richer mixtures in order to burn more fuel at a hotter temperature. Your observation of a leaner A/F should have given you kittens and cause you to ask around for what could posibly be the case. 11.5:1 is a measured standard intercept for hottest temperature and highest pressure which yields a higher BMEP and thus torque and hp. Each car is diferent, that's why tunning is such a big deal.
As for the errosion of your fuel system, do not take my word for it when a simple experiment will sufice. Get 3 or 4 glasses, they do not have to be large but they have to be clear and unadorned. In one put a small quantity of 2,2,4 trimethyl pentane which can be had in small quantities at your local chemical supply. In the next, put a small quantity of N-xylene. In the next glass put a small quantity of N-toluene. In the optional fourth glass you can put either your standard gasoline or simple green although for the 1st test, pump gas must be used as a standard.
test 1: go to 7-11 get 8 straws and place one in each container as you start a stopwatch in front of each. stop the stopwatch when the portion that was out of the fluid is reduced by half. You should see xylene first, toluene second, standard pump gas, and 2,2,4 trimethyl pentane last.
test 2: Go to a junkyard and find the nastiest valves you can (8 of them) and place them in the sample fluids 1 per glass. again, you should see xylene and toluene ahead with standard gas third and 2,2,4 trimethyl pentane a distant last (no detergents and not all that good of an apolar aprotic solvent) you can compare them after a standard period of time or you can pull them out once they are clean and compare it.

For safety sake, do not leave this experiment unatended for any reason. Peeing your pants is far less embarasing than a fire LOL!!! but I think it will open many eyes particularly if some enterprising soul does it with the three grades of pump gas.

Believe me guys I want more output (ok, so I am looking in other places like heat and temperature diferences) but I am not going to watch my baby burn for any amount of horsepower. Clearly I knew about toluene and xylene a long time ago as Hondadog, Makku, gtpilot, and others probably did as well but I doubt the idea withstood their research efforts any more than it did mine.
Remember, these are contaminants that are left in after catalitic cracking because it would just be too expensive to distill them out. Toluene is the product of cyclization of heptane, xylenes are the product of the cyclisation of 2,2,4 trimethyl pentane and its isomers and either can also form by Friedel-Crafts alkylation although this is still a side product and not an intended part of the synthesis.
 

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the MAD scientist
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It is unlikely that MMT will make it out of the exhaust pipe. Under those conditions the ligands would be very labile. It will most likely hydrolize into MnO4.
 

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DseriesScience said:
Hey Dog! Put some physics into this....If a copper plate is inserted between the headers and the head will it move heat away from the head fast enough to allow overwraping the headers to increase exhaust temperature and the intake exhaust side temp diferential? the idea being that with the phenolic gasket on the intake, this would make more efficient use of the energy already in the fuel?
I doubt it would make that much difference. I see what your saying and theoretically your right. I have a Hondata heat shield gasket on the intake side and it reduces the heat quite a bit. However on the exhaust side header wrap would probably suffice.
 
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Hondadog said:
I doubt it would make that much difference. I see what your saying and theoretically your right. I have a Hondata heat shield gasket on the intake side and it reduces the heat quite a bit. However on the exhaust sideheader wrap would probably suffice.
Hey thanks for replying :)

I already have the headers wraped what I want to do is overwrap them but I am woried about warping the head so would it work in that sense? You know 7thgear has a source for phenolic plates and is going to cut a gasket out of it. For a while I thought he was going to make some so I gave him the whole synthesis LOL!! I would love to have the space to try it :) what about a phenolic resin on that side?
 

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id love to do it

but let me freakin finish my minime first!!



on a side note, you said that going back to pump gas after using the stuff requires retuning, what if you gradualy reduce the dosage mixed until your back to using 100% regular gasoline?? would that be okay

seems like a nice thing to do with an engine thats dirty... but then again seafoam is a tried and tested product.
 
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