Honda D Series Forum banner

1 - 20 of 65 Posts

·
Curious George
'99 LX Civic Sedan
Joined
·
3,569 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Here is an article on "Rocket fuel" for our cars.



TOLUENE
R+M/2...114
Cost...$2.50/gal
Mixtures with 92 Octane Premium
10%...94.2 Octane
20%...96.4 Octane
30%...98.6 Octane
Notes: Common ingredient in Octane Boosters in a can. 12-16 ounces will only raise octane 2-3 *points*, I.e. from 92 to 92.3. Often costs $3-5 for 12-16 ounces, when it can be purchased for less than $3/gal at chemical supply houses or paint stores.


Rocket fuel FAQ
Copyright ã 1999,2000 by Eliot Lim This paper may be freely distributed, provided it is distributed in its entirety
Last revised by Eliot Lim: February 8, 2000
Last augmented by Charles Smith: January 6, 2003


Background

In late 1997 I became the lucky owner of 1 out of 150 1998 Porsche 993 Targas, the very last of the air cooled classics. As I drove it through the winter of 1997 and into the spring of 1998 I noticed that the engine lost some of its sweetness. Since this behavior was strongly related to ambient and engine temperature I suspected that the engine electronics were retarding its ignition timing due to insufficient fuel octane.

I started experimenting with octane boosting by first adding small doses of over the counter octane boosters and noticed immediate improvement. The engine ran smoother and quieter, was more willing to rev and had noticeably sharper throttle response. The octane shortage was confirmed by the sticker on the filler cap that stated that 93 octane fuel was needed. Since the highest octane rated fuel that was commonly available in Washington state is 92, I decided to investigate long term cost effective octane boosting so that I could fully enjoy the performance that this car offered.

My other car at the time, a 1990 Audi V8 quattro had an even more dramatic response to octane boosting. I managed to convince a few good friends to try it and the reaction was overwhelmingly positive. When I attempted a broader based dissemination of this exciting find, I was greeted largely by broad unyielding skepticism and plenty of FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) regarding toxicity, safety and engine damage. There arose a need to more clearly explain the details of octane boosting, hence giving rise to this article.


Q: Will my car benefit from octane boosting?

A: Consumer organizations have effectively emphasized the larger markups that oil companies charge for high octane gasoline, implying that for most vehicles higher octane fuel is a complete waste of money. It has been quite a long time since the consumer alert was issued. Since then engine technology has evolved greatly, while people's perceptions generally have not.

Modern vehicles now use computerized engine management systems that can react to engine knock and retard ignition timing if low octane fuel is being used. Consequently cars are now being manufactured with very high compression ratios that appear to give good fuel economy and at the same time good performance. This combination does assume that fuel of adequate octane is being used.


Q: Why bother to boost octane at all since my engine can run just fine on lower octane fuel?

A: For a high compression engine to run on low octane fuel, the engine management system will need to retard the ignition timing to prevent preignition or pinging. Retarding the ignition timing means that the firing of the spark plug is delayed until a later moment in the compression stroke. It does not take much to see that a later onset of combustion means that the combustion is less complete, which in turn mean less power and poorer fuel economy. It is possible that the casual driver will still come out ahead in terms of saving money by using low octane fuel, but the retarded ignition advance also means a rougher running engine and a much duller throttle response. Thus octane boosting is not necessarily of interest to all motorists but rather the enthusiasts.

For turbocharged or supercharged engines, insufficient octane will also lead the engine management system to curtail the amount of boost which in turn defeats the purpose of these engines.


Q: How did you discover using toluene?

A: Someone came across a web page that described various DIY home brew octane booster formulas. One of which used toluene as its main ingredient. As a Formula 1 racing fan of many years, I recalled that toluene was used extensively in the turbo era in the 1980s by all the Formula 1 teams. The 1.5 liter turbocharged engines ran as much as 5 bars of boost (73 psi) in qualifying and 4 bars (59 psi) in the actual race. Power output exceeded 1500bhp, which translates into 1000bhp/liter, an astronomical figure.

A motorsports journalist, Ian Bamsey, was able to obtain Honda's cooperation for his book "McLaren Honda Turbo, a Technical Appraisal". The book documents the key role that the toluene fuel played in allowing these tiny engines to run so much turbo boost without detonation. The term "rocket fuel" originated from the Formula 1 fraternity as an affectionate nickname to describe its devastating potency. Thus I concluded that I should focus my research on using toluene for my octane boosting project.

Individuals with good long term memory will recall that when unleaded gasoline was first introduced, only low octane grades were available. While it is not entirely clear that high octane super unleaded gas came about as a result of the advances in fuel technology in Formula 1, there is every reason to suspect that this is indeed the case, since many of the major oil companies were involved in the escalating race to develop increasingly potent racing fuel during this era.


Q: Why do you think toluene is better than other types of octane boosters?

A: Several reasons:

Mindful of the evil reputation of octane boosters in general, toluene is a very safe choice because it is one of the main octane boosters used by oil companies in producing ordinary gasoline of all grades. Thus if toluene is indeed harmful to your engine as feared, your engine would have disintegrated long, long ago since ordinary pump gasoline can contain as much as 50% aromatic hydrocarbons.

Toluene is a pure hydrocarbon 'C7H8'. i.e. it contains only hydrogen and carbon atoms. It belongs to a particular category of hydrocarbons called aromatic hydrocarbons. Complete combustion of toluene yields CO2 and H2O. This fact ensures that the entire emission control system such as the catalyst and oxygen sensor of your car is unaffected. There are no metallic compounds (lead, magnesium etc), no nitro compounds and no oxygen atoms in toluene. It is made up of exactly the same ingredients as ordinary gasoline. In fact it is one of the main ingredients of gasoline.

Toluene has a RON octane rating of 121 and a MON rating of 107, leading to a (R+M)/2 rating of 114. (R+M)/2 is how ordinary fuels are rated in the US. Note that toluene has a sensitivity rating of 121-107=14. This compares favorably with alcohols which have sensitivities in the 20-30 range. The more sensitive a fuel is the more its performance degrades under load. Toluene's low sensitivity means that it is an excellent fuel for a heavily loaded engine.

Toluene is denser than ordinary gasoline (0.87 g/mL vs. 0.72-0.74) and contains more energy per unit volume. Thus combustion of toluene leads to more energy being liberated and thus more power generated. This is in contrast to oxygenated octane boosters like ethanol or MTBE which contain less energy per unit volume compared to gasoline. The higher heating value of toluene also means that the exhaust gases contain more kinetic energy, which in turn means that there is more energy to drive turbocharger vanes. In practical terms this is experienced as a faster onset of turbo boost.

Chevron's published composition of 100 octane aviation fuel shows that toluene comprises up to 14% alone and is the predominant aromatic hydrocarbon. Unfortunately composition specifications for automotive gasoline is harder to pin down due to constantly changing requirements.

Chevron's web site also describes the problems of ethanol being used in gasoline.

MTBE was heavily touted as a clean additive several years ago, and became a key ingredient in reformulated gasoline that is sold in California. But recently new studies arose that showed that MTBE was far more toxic than previously imagined. Organizations such as oxybusters have formed around the country to eliminate the use of MTBE in gasoline and several states, including California have passed new laws to eventually outlaw MTBE.


Q: How much toluene should I use per tank of gas?

A: Octane ratings can be very easily calculated by simple averaging. For example, the tank of an Audi A4 1.8TQ is 15.6 gallons. Filling it with 14.6 gallons of 92 octane and 1 gallon of toluene (114 octane) will yield a fuel mix of:

(14.6 * 92) + (1 * 114) / 15.6 = 93.4

The Audi A4 1.8T is a good example of a car that has very high octane needs if it has been modified to produce more turbo boost. The base compression ratio of this car is a very high 9.5:1 and when an additional 1 bar (14.7 psi) of turbo boost is applied on top of it, the resulting effective compression ratio is way beyond what 92 or 93 octane fuel can ever hope to cope with. Most modified 1.8Ts running without octane enhancement are running with severely retarded ignition timing and boost.



 

·
Curious George
'99 LX Civic Sedan
Joined
·
3,569 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
Q: Will toluene damage my engine or other parts of my car?

A: A 5 or 10% increase in the aromatic content of gas will most likely be well within the refining specifications of gasoline defined by ASTM D4814, which specify an aromatic content of between 20% and 45%. What this means is that if the 92 octane gas that you started off with had an aromatic content of say 30% and you increased it by 10% to 40% you would still be left with a mix that meets the industry definition of gasoline. So the above question would amount to: "Will gasoline damage my engine or other parts of my car?"

Even in the unlikely event that the 92 octane gas has a aromatic content of 45% the resulting mix would still be within the bounds of gasoline sold in other countries.


Q: Isn't toluene an extremely toxic substance?

A: The common perception of toluene's toxicity far exceeds reality. Fortunately there is an ample body of information available that specifically addresses this question. Toluene is more toxic than gasoline but it is certainly not agent orange or cyanide. See the Agency for Toxic Substances link below in the reference section.

US Environmental Protection Agency Chemical Summary

US Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR)

National priority list of toxic substances
Note that the ATSDR also rates gasoline as a hazardous substance.

Mobil's spec sheet for toluene even goes as far as saying that "Based on available toxicological information, it has been determined that this product poses no significant health risk when used and handled properly."


Q: Isn't toluene an active ingredient of TNT (trinitrotoluene) and is thus deadly?

A: In the same way that cotton wool is the base ingredient of nitrocellulose (guncotton) which in turn is the main ingredient in modern smokeless gunpowder. Using this reasoning one could conclude that cotton wool is a deadly substance. This question reflects a poor understanding of basic chemistry but unfortunately it has been asked often enough.


Q: How much does toluene cost, and where can I buy some?

A: $10/gallon in a one gallon can at a hardware store, about $6/gallon in a 5 gallon can from a chemical supply or paint store, or $3/gallon in a 55 gallon drum from a chemical supply warehouse.

A2: Experience of Charlie Smith in 2002. Sherwin Williams paint stores have it for $5.00 in a gallon can. They can order it in a 5 gallon can at $4.00 / gallon. They can order 55 gallon drums for about the same cost per gallon, but you have to have a dock unloading facility to get the drum(s) off of the delivery truck.


Q: Can I just dump in 100% toluene into the tank like the F1 racers? vroom vroom vroom

A: First of all, the F1 racers did not use 100% toluene, but 84%. The other 16% in their brew is n-heptane, which has an octane rating of zero. The reason for this strange combination is because the F1 rocket fuel was limited to the rules to being of 102 RON octane. The n-heptane is "filler" to make the fuel comply with the rules.

Because toluene is such an effective anti knock fuel it also means that it is more difficult to ignite at low temperatures. The Formula 1 cars that ran on 84% toluene needed to have hot radiator air diverted to heat its fuel tank to 70C to assist its vaporization. Thus too strong a concentration of toluene will lead to poor cold start and running characteristics. I recommend that the concentration of toluene used to not exceed what the engine is capable of utilizing. i.e. Experiment with small increases in concentration until you can no longer detect an improvement.


Q: Why not simply use racing gasoline or aviation fuel?

A1: Most types of aviation fuel have very high lead content, which would rule out cars equipped with catalytic converters. Most piston engined aircraft burn leaded fuel. Also aviation fuel has a very different hydrocarbon mix to optimize volatility properties at high altitude.

A2: Racing gasoline could be a much more convenient way to run high octane fuel compared to having to constantly mix in toluene with each fill up. There are, however a few caveats:


You don't know for sure if you are really getting what is being advertised. You should find out if the fuel inspectors verify the actual octane of the racing gasoline in addition to ordinary gasoline. If you paid $3/gallon and only got 94 or 95 octane instead of 100 octane you may conclude erroneously that your car does not benefit from octane boosting.

You don't know what octane boosters are used in the racing gasoline. The worst case scenario is buying leaded racing gasoline without knowing it. Unleaded racing gasoline may still contain damaging octane boosters like MMT or methanol. A very high alcohol content will lead to fuel line erosion, accelerated fuel pump wear, very poor fuel economy and possibly lower performance, as alcohols have a less impressive MON rating than aromatics.

It takes smaller quantities of toluene to achieve the same octane boost compared to 100 octane racing gas. I have not seen unleaded racing gas for sale that exceeds the octane rating of toluene.

Since toluene is not officially sold as a fuel, gas taxes do not apply. Also racing gasoline tend to have higher markups being of interest to the performance minded enthusiast and thus is very likely to be more expensive to buy and use long term than toluene, which is typically used in more mundane applications like paint thinner.

Q: Ok, what is the catch?

A: It should be mentioned that in the US, efforts are underway to reduce the aromatic content of gasolines in general as a higher aromatic content leads to higher benzene emissions. Benzene is an extremely toxic substance. However it should also be noted that the proportions that is being discussed in this FAQ is relatively small and in the grand scheme of things is probably insignificant. Moreover, the industrial standard for defining gasoline composition allows plenty of leeway in aromatic content and the proportions present in US gas is already lower than most other countries. I therefore feel that the information provided here is useful to a performance minded car enthusiast while not being significantly detrimental to the environment.


Q: What safety measures can you recommend in handling toluene?

A: The following is a good reference guide:


Q: Do you have testimonies of others who have tried this?

A: Some samples of feedback is reprinted with the names removed below. You may contact me if you wish to contact the respondents directly.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

·
Curious George
'99 LX Civic Sedan
Joined
·
3,569 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Since I didn't have any reference point for how much to use, I dumped about a half gallon of this mix into a mostly empty tank (the GT has a 16 gallon tank) and then filled up with Chevron 92 octane.
I didn't get to drive the car until PIR the next morning, (my GF doesn't like the 200; it's too big) but the report was that there was no change for a mile or so, and then all of a sudden, the engine seemed to smooth out and became quite eager to rev and run.
Well, by that calculation, I only managed to bump the octane to just shy of 93, but it seemed to make a big difference. I ran the car hard all day, (for reference, it's got an '87 MC turbo motor, K26, 12psi boost, and currently no intercooler) and even at 12 pounds of boost, I never once felt the ECU backing the timing off. Granted, the ambient temps never got above 50, and my water and oil temps were rock solid. (Oil just pushing above 100C)

The only cars that I had to get out of the way for was an Integra Type R and a couple of race-prepped P-cars. I even managed to lap the NSX once! It was a really good day!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, kids, gather round. This is important: we spend lots of money for our car, lot of money modifying and taking care of it, lots of effort and pride in owning it. So if someone comes along and proposes to give you something that would increase your enjoyment in driving by exponential measures and it would only cost you two or three bucks per tank of gas, would you be suspicious like the 100MPG carburetors? Would you listen long enough to real-life testimonies to consider this improvement for yourself?
Well, this is the case for Toluene and what it can do for your V8Q if you been using anything less than 92+ octane. Get some.Try it. No harm, no risk. Use about 24-32 ounces per 1/2 to full tank. You will not look debonair. You will have to suspend your "cool" look. You may want to try this alone. YOU WILL HAVE THE SHITTEST, MOST PLASTER, GRIN ON YOUR FACE YOU HAVE EVER HAD! It won't come off. You'll tell the kids, daddy has his own "transformer". It will be like a new car...no, better than new!
I took my family out to dinner tonight and could hardly keep from dropping it into manual and showing off like some teenager (I don't think my 17 year old daughter was inpressed). I wanna see some posts here with personal experiences by you guys using this stuff - I wanna know that my car is normal and hasn't been deprived ever since I've owned it.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I did the Rocket Fuel thing tonight on my Extremely Modified 5KCSTQ that runs 24 PSI of boost... And I can tell you not only does my ears and my butt say that the Rocket fuel is doing it's job but My ECU Data logger that gives me the timing value for all 5 cyls says it's working too.
Before Rocket Fuel I was running full retard (14 Deg of timing) on boost and would still on occasion get some knock, now I'm getting timing numbers around 22 Deg's with ZERO knock ever. I'm running 2 Gallons of Toluene 7oz of ATF and 17.5 gals of 93 oct gas for a net octane of 95.15. I'm next going to try 3 Gallons of Toluene (96.23 Octane) to see what timing numbers I get.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After being convinced that my car was running below it potential - Owners manual recommends octane rating between 95 and 99, although it_will_run on octane as low as 91 - I stopped by Sherwin Williams and picked up a gallon. It was on sale for $5.85! Anyway, head to the chevron and pour a half gallon into the tank before pumping in the premium. The car took 16 gallons so there was still 4 gallons in the tank. I take off....nothing (obviously burning the fuel still in the lines). About 10 miles later, HOLY SH*****T!!!!!!!!!! It really does everything advertised by the list. It is so much more responsive from a stop and low speed, it really is impressive. I would agree with the sentiment that it feels like a totally different car.
For the non believers, you really should try to get some higher octane fuel in your tank, whether through the use of Toluene or not. The owners manual recommends 95 to 99 octane** for optimal performance. With the half gallon of Toluene I added to the 92 octane, I was only running at approximately 92.6 octane and the difference was simply amazing!

If you haven't tried it, do yourself a favor and give it a whirl - I swear you'll be impressed.

(**note: this person confused RON octane mentioned in the owners manual with R+M/2 octane that is sold in the pump. 95-99 RON is roughly equivalent to 91-94 R+M/2)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After trying rocket fuel for two weeks, I can only say I love it.
The first tank, however, was a disappointment. I think I did not add enough of rocket fuel for the first tank. So I added a little more for my second tank, it ran better but not too much improvement. Then on my 3rd tank, what a difference, the car feels like a "Rocket" now, even though it is an "Auto". I always feel there is more power available for me.

I think for my 1st and 2nd tank, I did not have enough rocket fuel in it, even though I added one gallon per tank. Then, on my 3rd tank, I had enough because of the left overs from my 1st and 2nd tank. (I fill up my tank at about the 1/4 mark). Now I only have about 2 gallons of rocket fuel left, I better get more now!!! :)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reference materials:


1. Gasoline FAQ

2. McLaren Honda Turbo - a technical appraisal
Ian Bamsey
ISBN 0-85429-840-1, published 1990

3. Chevron's excellent Motor Gasolines Technical Review

4. Agency for Toxic Substances FAQ on Toluene
In summary:
Use in a well ventilated area, don't drink even a little of it, and
report spills of more than 1000 pounds to the National Response Center

5. Toxic Chemicals in your Environment (Australia) FAQ on Toluene
In summary:
this "Total Environment Center" likes a totally chemical free environment,
and even at that they can't find fault about much more than acute exposure
cases, and they also say not to drink any of it.

6. Exxon Chemical Americas - Toluene, Technical Material Safety Data Sheet

7. Recicladora Temarry de Mexico - Recycling Processor
Recycling information and Material Safety Data Sheets on numerous chemicals including Toluene.






http://www.team.net./sol/tech/octane_b.html

http://elektro.cmhnet.org/~charlie/photos/cars/audi/toluene.html
 

·
Curious George
'99 LX Civic Sedan
Joined
·
3,569 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
I will try some receipe into my old '90 tercel, after into my '96 golf and if it work Civic :)

I think that the guy who mentionned this article have enough knowledge about tolouene and more .. ! :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,585 Posts
Im down I will put some of that shizzle in my Rex when i get back home!!!
 

·
No more Honda's :-(
Civic CX
Joined
·
3,223 Posts
please post the results if anyone tries it. i might stop by the paint store on my way home from work tomorrow and try it. one question though, what about lubrication? i know that gas has oil in it. i did see that one guy added some atf. maybe mix some 2-stroke oil in or maybe it's just not needed?
 

·
No more Honda's :-(
Civic CX
Joined
·
3,223 Posts

·
Registered
my eg8 daily
Joined
·
364 Posts
if cost is of no concern...total cost I mean.....you buy it in large quantaties....meaning 5 gal +...save at the pump buy using the 89 octane....computed for my eg sedan: 11.3gal capacity tank (owners manual) 9 gal of 89 octane + 2.3 gal toulene 114 octane = 96 octane...hmmm...might have to check into that....might have to see what my painter can get it for with discount...
 
D

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Caveat Emptor

I Have been sitting this one out for a bit but the amount of problems continues to increase while the actual problem is not defined nor has a viable solution been discused. First, the individual cited several good references but must have either not read or not understood what was being said. Second, the problem of "shitty gas" begins in misinformation, grows in misunderstanding and lack of skepticism, and survives in the mythology of detroit lead sled performance.
The problem is first and foremost that someone's car "feels" slugish. While there can be many factors that can cause this, I am of the opinion that the numbing of the butt dyno that results from daily driving is to blame. Nevertheless, this individual begins to look for an answer. Invariably, the modern practice of one pump and three grades "provides" an "answer" if 91 octane is best then more "octane" must be better, right? WRONG! the Anti Knock Index is a measure of the resistance to detonation of a REFERENCE MIXTURE of 2,2,4-trimethyl pentane and heptane that behaves as the batch sample did in the average of two tests. The Reference Octane Number and the Motor Octane Number (I posted the ansi numbers elsewhere in this forum) and is a measure of the resistance to detonation of a sample SPECIFICALLY EXPOSED TO PROGRESSIVELY MORE DETONATION PRONE CONDITIONS UNTIL DETONATION IS THE ONLY EFFECT AND NET OUTPUT IS EQUAL TO ZERO. Numbers above 100 are determined by extrapolation. These numbers, the RON, MON, and ANI have nothing to do with power production or energy content of a given fuel. Any discussion that revolves around any aspect of a chemical or mixture that relates to these tests is futile and potentially dangerous.
That being said, what is sought-POWER- is a function of the energy content per volume of fuel generally measured in British Thermal Units or Calories(SI) as a static value generally measured in some form of calorimeter. Within the engine, the amount of power you feel -torque- produced by unit volume combusted is a function of the Brake Mean Effective Pressure at a given Volumetric Efficiency (as oposed to absolute displacement which yields a high point that is rarely reached.) (cont.)
 
D

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Caveat Emptor II

the BMEP is itself a function of burn rate and temperature such that a slower burn rate and a higher temperature exert a higher pressure on a surface (the entire cylinder and not just the piston which experiences only a fraction of the force) because there is more time for the presure to increase BUT resistance to ignition can not affect this why? because you need a propagating flame front to exert the pressure. Preignition is a different story, as the flame front advances, it compresses the gasses in front of it- like any other explosion there is a shock wave-; however, there is no benefit beyond the point at which preignition would have occured. This is why a higher ANI does not make "more power" or is somehow "better"; once the pressure has increased beyond the preignition point of a given component, by definition the flame front has to be there.
The myth persists because the REFERENCE SAMPLE IS CONFUSED WITH THE EXPERIMENTAL SAMPLE. More than anything, the ANI is a way of making brand A batch A comparable with batch B or Brand B and is not an indication of the actual btu content which can vary wildly. For those of you in CA the lower ANI has nothing to do with the quality of your gas which is much more refined than elsewhere in the nation (lower sulfur compounds and lower aromatics) but has a comparable BTU content. Racing Fuels are formulated first and foremost for consistency from batch to batch to allow-GET THIS- TIGHTER TOLERANCES IN TUNNING and secondarily to increase the BTU content. The resultant increase in ANI is an artifact of the process.
That being said, please refer to your high school math book's percentage section wherein you wil find that you can not add percentages of different entities unless the entities are absolutely defined. The REFERENCE MIXTURE is, the EXPERIMENTAL MIXTURE is not. A "pure" (xylene and toluene are mixtures unless you buy reagent grade ~ 60.00 a bottle for a given species) chemical subjected to the aforementioned tests will behave in a manner x which is IMPOSIBLE TO DUPLICATE IN YOUR GAS TANK REGARDLESS OF HOW YOU MIX IT saying that a given mixture has a given "octane rating" is both absurd and imposible. Moreover, any hope anyone may harbor that this would increase the BTU content is futile. in adding a volume X to volume Y, the combined Volume has an intermediate BTU content not a superior one. The only way to increase BTU content is to increase the BMEP (temperature of burn or volume of combustion) without changing the ignition point and/or pressure. This is how NO2 does its magic as is how FI makes it, albeit with oposite main thrusts. NO2 primarily increases temperature while FI primarily increases volume (compresion = increased O2 volume and partial pressure for a given combustion volume.) You can also increase the VE of your engine (see Hondadog's post in archive; pm me for a link to another option) but this is not all that simple. (cont.)
 
D

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Caveat Emptor III

Since its not that simple, it violates the first rule of myths which states that "all eggheads are wrong and this absurdly simple solution is why" which is also why the myth of add this and fly stays alive. However, the embarasing experiences -which are only a matter of time- are rarely reported. The fact that gasoline has these solvents does not mean they are wanted there. It is just a matter of cost as separating these solvents that result from side reactions durring catalitic cracking would force everyone to drive Insights simply because of the cost involved. Where it not the case, why spend the money and effort to develop detergents when these solvents -which are far far better at removing carbon deposits and assorted junk from the injectors etc...-as oposed to just adding some more toluene or xylene (7 and 8 carbons respectively but cyclic as oposed to the desired branched aliphatic 2,2,4 trimethyl pentane that was the goal) to the fuel sample by simple being less careful and taking out some of the more exotic and expensive-big word warning- regiospecific catalists which also happens to have the added effect of shifting the ANI for free.

Nevertheless, these solvents will eat the polyethylene and polystyrene and amino butyl styrene (ABS) parts in your fuel system and will eventually and quite unexpectedly set your pride and joy ( your bling bling ? :) ) on fire and given the nature and location of the fire (fuel lines run under the driver side) at the very least, it will be exciting. However, given the nature of the event -very embarasing- its unlilkely that we at D series.org will hear from you again even if you survive and so the myth will continue. In the end, ocational use is safe as a cleaner but DO NOT EXPECT POWER FROM IT cleaner injectors, cleaner chambers, cleaner valves, and cleaner exhaust ports do make power but no 6.00 can at home depot will slam anyone back in their seat nor will it change nature anymore than enzyte will (ever heard of anyone using it and telling anyone how it worked? no? the reason is you loose either way...think about it.) just like ignorance of the law does not change the law, neither does disbelief in physical realities make them any less so and hence to the title Caveat Emptor.

One final note, av gas can actually have a lower BTU content and still produce the same BMEP because the temperature differential between the fuel temperature and intake charge and the engine is so much greater than on four wheels. The difference between the exaust ports and the exhaust terminus is also quite a bit larger than on four wheels and that doesnt hurt either. In a very real sense, the addition of Tetra Ethyl Lead is more so that a more volatile fuel can take advantage of these conditions while resisting preigniton better than anything else. Here on land, you can very cheaply use a hondata IM gasket, Wrap your headers really well, cool your intake, cool your fuel (at least the filter), and increase the velocity of your intake charge...maybe even inject some alcohol/water mix which in NA applications is mainly there to cool the charge and with some dyno time....
ohh, one cheap butt dyno mode, reduce the sprung weight at the end of your axles, 15 inch wheels and less than 35lbs and that alone will bump up the joy factor.
Ladies and Gentleman, there is no "rocket fuel" that will make a poorly thought out and moded car fast. Look at and compare the upcoming Pontiac solstice and the Lotus Elan; the first is planed to have over 200 hp and will die at the hands of every S2000 (itself quite portly) it meets and the Euromarket Elan that with a 118 hp engine flies quite well and with the 180 hp Toyota (sacrilege) engine will soon be seen tearing up these roads.
Do you REALLY need that wing or that monster stereo or those 18" wheels or that insane roll cage (look up why Dale Earnhart died and you will see what is missing in your ride) or do you seek the same edge that you get in a VFR 800 (ne: 750) when you know that death is but one mistake away but you ride anyway.
 
D

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Ladies and Gentleman, I do not intend or desire to preach but bad math is bad math, bad chemistry is bad chemisty and bad physics is just bad physics. I will post the formulas within the next few days. I did not quote anyone or use any names because unhindered discussion is why we are all here and how we all learn. Just remember that when someone works on a 454 or a hemi "six pack" they are working on pre WWII technology while we are working on F1 late 1980's tech which had the rules not changed.... now if we add a little Group V rally tech like the 500+ hp Lancia that ran on 100 ANI (Leaded!!!) but that is already being discussed on another post....
More is not always better and your car will not always do better with the dizzy all the way to the firewall or the most cam advance or the most ANI... it's all in the tune :)
 

·
Curious George
'99 LX Civic Sedan
Joined
·
3,569 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Sure ! Some guys think that they 'know: bigger cam is the better' and the same for others things... I know that's wrong, But do you think that 93-95 octane is better than 87 for racing, drag, turbo or any forced induction or very built all motor ?

here I can't have more than 91 octane gazoline, Toluene seems to be a good receip to acheive 93-95 octane for race engine ? I don't want to reach 140 airplane fuel, better grade for 'cheap' ...

Dear DseriesScience,

Do you think that Hydro-carbur like toluene may be good octane upgrade when correctly mixed with gaz to acheive a decent octane amount to be less prone to detonation and better burn mix ?

Thanx a lot :)
 
D

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
Belette said:
Sure ! Some guys think that they 'know: bigger cam is the better' and the same for others things... I know that's wrong, But do you think that 93-95 octane is better than 87 for racing, drag, turbo or any forced induction or very built all motor ?

here I can't have more than 91 octane gazoline, Toluene seems to be a good receip to acheive 93-95 octane for race engine ? I don't want to reach 140 airplane fuel, better grade for 'cheap' ...

Dear DseriesScience,

Do you think that Hydro-carbur like toluene may be good octane upgrade when correctly mixed with gaz to acheive a decent octane amount to be less prone to detonation and better burn mix ?

Thanx a lot :)
Ok, sometimes I miss the social context of things so I will reply on the assumption that the formality is a kind of joke rather than damnation by faint praise. The problem is that that 91 is an ANI not an MON or a RON. Methyl Tert Butyl Ether will increase resistance to detonation without attacking the fuel system and can be had in reagent grade for a reasonable amount of money. methyl cyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl will also boost octane quite efficiently and safely and if you are in Canada (where is QC?) it is already in your fuel at 1/32 vol:vol basis. Ethanol in enough quantity will also work very well but it has the side effect of reducing your mpg. This is because it has a lower BTU content but a lower specific gravity so your ecu will measure it out at a larger volume which will cool the cylinder prior to ignition and vrooooommmm! !! but the mpg's :( MTBE has a much lower vapor pressure than gasoline and so long as it is cool ~75 or less the increased volatility will help and you will feel it again with a decrease in mpg but if it gets hot then you have to cut it back or you will experience vapor lock (your engine will be harder to start when hot as well) the MMT is extremely efficient at raising the ANI but it's a neurotoxin if you breathe it. There are some concerns for ODB sensors but it is mostly a ODB III problem as far as I can tell. You can also do Alcohol injection into the turbo stream which (most reports use undiluted winshield washer fluid) in FI has the effect of decreasing the apparent need (or increasing the apparent ANI if you like) and if you cool it will also add considerably to your output (see olds grand nationals it is as common among the owners as intakes are in our crowd) and is quite cost effective without the attendant decrease in mpg if it is metered out (like NO2 would be)
Before you do anything, dyno the car as is and check the air/fuel ratio and tune it so that it stays around 11.5:1 then mess with the cam/timming relationship -and it is a relationship- so that with an a/f of 11.5:1 only minimal detonation is observed (a little speckling on the plugs) and then only under sudden acceleration (indicating a defficiency atributable to the characteristics tested in MON) and then begin to play with a chemistry set of 5 gal fuel containers (3 at least) either as variations of mixtures of a selected chemical or as equal vol:vol mix of each (in which case use the MTBE first) and read your plugs after a drive and dyno (note you should end up on the dyno only 4 times unless you feel you need more) and when you find what works for you post it and let us know.

ps: test barometric pressure and temperature during the drive so that you will have a reference to compare with the dyno. highest temp at lowest altitude
pss: dont accelerate like a mad man in first until you know that the mix you've chosen will work the engine you save might be your own.
 

·
Registered
my eg8 daily
Joined
·
364 Posts
:shock: wow, thats alot to take in...though i think i'm wit u...i won't be putting nuttin but gas in my tank....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
500 Posts
dear lord dseriescience~~~!!! i'm currently reading a sci-fi/cyber punk novel by william gibson and you my friend even top him in your in debth explanations and reasoning

also i dont know if anyone ever told you, but your writing style is superb!! While not an author myself by anymeans i can certainly appreciate a good peice of writing when i see it!


after reading it over twice i find myself speechless and unable to say anything of value, go figure :)
 
1 - 20 of 65 Posts
Top