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Discussion Starter #1
I am rebuilding my engine and I am buying all of these:

1. oil pump
2. water pump
3. all the O-rings and oil seals for engine and gearbox
4. piston rings


http://www.d-series.org/forums//showthread.php?t=54963









I want to be on safe side this time and do it completely but I am a bit confused. Machine shop has shaved the head, block and pistons but they didn’t bore or hone the block. Do you need to do all these every time you rebuild your engine or they are just for some special circumstances? Like what?

The water jacket is totally rusted and I don’t know if the machine shop had to clean it or not! If not where or how should I clean it? Is it going to impact the cooling performance when it is rusted?

What else do I need to change? Have in mind that it is the 3rd time I am opening the head and first time the block. Do I need to change head studs? What about main studs?

Do I need to change connecting rod bearing, main bearings or thrust washers?

I am spending my money to make sure this time I will have no trouble so I think it is better if I spend a bit more now than be sorry later.

Please help me out here!
 

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they shaved the block with the crank still in it?? man that thing needs to be totally disassembled and cleaned. who knows what oil passages have metal in them that could be disastrous to your motor. same goes for the head IMO. did they do a valve job? or was it just shaved and thats it?

i would have also honed the block..
 

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Discussion Starter #4
they shaved the block with the crank still in it?? man that thing needs to be totally disassembled and cleaned. who knows what oil passages have metal in them that could be disastrous to your motor. same goes for the head IMO. did they do a valve job? or was it just shaved and thats it?

i would have also honed the block..
No they disassemble the block first then send it for machine shop, same for head too. About valves I know they sand the valve seats.

What is bothering me the most is all the rust inside my water jacket in block and also head. I don’t know how to clean that? Read somewhere that you need to put acid inside which I don’t dare to try. Need suggestion from people who have cleaned it before or know how to do.

Somebody also said something about combustion chamber being beaten or something.

I don’t want that rust to make my engine over heat again or make it work like shit.

When you say clean do you mean it should have no sign of oil or anything? I mean shine like new polished aluminum or just clean?

Thanks guys!
 

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if there is a decent amount of rust on the cylinder walls then the block needs to be honed.. if there is a crapload of rust it will need to be bored. do either until you reach clean metal and then oil with like wd40 right afterward to keep it from rusting again.
you do not have to bore and hone everytime. altho a quick hone will deglaze the cylinder walls. just keep in mind that the more material you remove the bigger your oil clearance becomes and the less effective the rings will be at sealing. so if you decide to ball hone don't go too buck wild.
It looks like you've already started assembling the block and so unless you want to tear everything apart i wouldnt worry about honing. How do the cylinder walls look? any noticeable scratches?

you said the water jacket was also rusty? since the block and head are both made out of cast aluminum they are not going to be rusting on you. The cylinder walls are going to be the main place you'll see rust.
From what i can see from your picture it looks like its just residue from the coolant or something.

also yes replace all the bearings, replace your rings as well.

you do not need to replace your studs although some people will tell you so.
I know many people as well as myself that have built motors and not replaced the studs and not had an issue. Take a look at each stud after cleaning them- inspect the threads for stretch and to make sure none are stripped. Only worry about replacing if you're going to boost or really build it. If you are going to be visiting high rpms- then also consider getting some aftermarket rod bolts too (and/or some other rods)

you can take your pistons and spray some degreaser on them, let them soak a while and then toss them in the dishwasher for a while with some liquid soap. (don't use the powder kind cause it will leave residue) If you can't use the dishwasher then you can do it by hand as well. you can use a soft plastic brush to scrub off the crap. Make sure to oil the rods and pin really well afterwards if they are still attached


(the black one) and

(the green one)
is what i use when doing it at home.

also before removing your rings you can use them to clean the ringlands by pressing down and turning.
 

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if its all commin apart now, deffinately get everything new, its not worth havin to do all the work again later, best to start from brand new...for how cheap head bolts are I would replace them too, most people don't, but you've had the head off a few times, and bolts do stretch..
 

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Discussion Starter #7
if there is a decent amount of rust on the cylinder walls then the block needs to be honed.. if there is a crapload of rust it will need to be bored. do either until you reach clean metal and then oil with like wd40 right afterward to keep it from rusting again.
I haven’t seen any rust inside the cylinder. Only inside the water jacket as you can see in the photo, both in head and block. Just wanna get rid of that somehow. so you can tell by look only. no need to use any

you do not have to bore and hone everytime. altho a quick hone will deglaze the cylinder walls. just keep in mind that the more material you remove the bigger your oil clearance becomes and the less effective the rings will be at sealing. so if you decide to ball hone don't go too buck wild.
It looks like you've already started assembling the block and so unless you want to tear everything apart i wouldnt worry about honing. How do the cylinder walls look? any noticeable scratches?
I haven’t seen any scratches yet, but I will look tomorrow again. No, I haven't started any assembly yet. This time I am not going to do anything before I make sure that everything is right.

So you can tell by look only, no need to use any sophisticated tools?

you said the water jacket was also rusty? since the block and head are both made out of cast aluminum they are not going to be rusting on you. The cylinder walls is going to be the main place you'll see rust.
From what i can see from your picture it looks like its just residue from the coolant or something.
what to do with water jacket?

Only worry about replacing if you're going to boost or really build it. If you are going to be visiting high rpms- then also consider getting some aftermarket rod bolts too (and/or some other rods)
What do you mean if I am really building? Of course this time I am REALLY BUILDING! It is a lot of money. Don’t wanna flush it in toilet.

How high rpm? Higher than 7200 red line? My car is auto, I don’t think I can even go higher than that even if I want.

you can take your pistons and spray some degreaser on them, let them soak a while and then toss them in the dishwasher for a while with some liquid soap. (don't use the powder kind cause it will leave residue) If you can't use the dishwasher then you can do it by hand as well. you can use a soft plastic brush to scrub off the crap. Make sure to oil the rods and pin really well afterwards if they are still attached
Can I clean the combustion camber also this way?

Sorry for a lot of questions and thanks for your reply. I am just a noob learning from you guys!
 

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ya you should be able to see the surface rusts and scratches visually. i'd take it to the machinists and have them check the inside diameter with something called a dial bore gauge.
take this measurement minus the diameter of the piston to figure out the oil clearance you have. there should be a spec for max oil clearance. if its really out of range you'd need to bore and use the next size up pistons.
(when you measure the pistons keep in mind that they are not round. so if the spec is really off, try measuring from the opposite direction.)

-anyway the machine shop really should have checked this for you already tho!-

i personally wouldn't waste time with cleaning the water jacket. its not really hurting anything.
you can try squirting it with b12 or brakleen and using a bottle brush in there.

oh and i meant "really building" as building up the motor to be high compression or run on boost or high rpm etc. not just building it to stock specifications. It looks like you are just rebuilding your motor to drive around in your daily driver with the occassional flogging :)


and i wrote it in the pm but will paste it here too. your combustion chamber looks a little scraped up. the scrapes will be easy places for the carbon to build up. I'd try to smooth down some of those scratches.
try crocus cloth (this is what i use- but its difficult to find) or very lightweight sandpaper. i imagine you could also try a polishing compound.
I'd leave the valves in for the majority of the time while your doing this, just so you don't mess up the valve job. then take the valves out and get the areas you couldn't get to as well.
Make sure you take the valves out and clean the valves, seats, and combustion chambers. cleanliness is key.


ps. yes you can clean the combustion chamber with a degreaser and right before assembly finish with some liquid soap and warm water. the plastic brush should be soft enough that it wont scratch anything.

if im doing a motor at home i normally do 1. holy cow 2. b12 carb cleaner 3. warm water and a little soap

the carb cleaner will clean without leaving a residue behind. I used to use just b12 but its expensive and bad for your liver and burns/dries out your skin. so use a degreaser thats a bit safer first. Holy cow and i think simple green are pretty safe.


oh and if you end up needing any specs let me know.
 

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EG
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Discussion Starter #11
ya you should be able to see the surface rusts and scratches visually. i'd take it to the machinists and have them check the inside diameter with something called a dial bore gauge.
take this measurement minus the diameter of the piston to figure out the oil clearance you have. there should be a spec for max oil clearance. if its really out of range you'd need to bore and use the next size up pistons.
(when you measure the pistons keep in mind that they are not round. so if the spec is really off, try measuring from the opposite direction.)

-anyway the machine shop really should have checked this for you already tho!-
The only thing that they told me was that cylinder doesn’t need boring or honing and I have to buy original size piston rings.

i personally wouldn't waste time with cleaning the water jacket. its not really hurting anything.
you can try squirting it with b12 or brakleen and using a bottle brush in there.
Thanks, I thought that is gonna make my engine suffer by overheating and wont let to transfer heat properly.

oh and i meant "really building" as building up the motor to be high compression or run on boost or high rpm etc. not just building it to stock specifications. It looks like you are just rebuilding your motor to drive around in your daily driver with the occassional flogging :)
Yes you are true. I don’t think that I am going to turbo charge my engine because of fuel price. Just want to restore my engine to its stock condition then improve it with some bolt on and some small modification. But first I want to make sure everything inside engine is ok.

and i wrote it in the pm but will paste it here too. your combustion chamber looks a little scraped up. the scrapes will be easy places for the carbon to build up. I'd try to smooth down some of those scratches.
try crocus cloth (this is what i use- but its difficult to find) or very lightweight sandpaper. i imagine you could also try a polishing compound.
I'd leave the valves in for the majority of the time while your doing this, just so you don't mess up the valve job. then take the valves out and get the areas you couldn't get to as well.
Make sure you take the valves out and clean the valves, seats, and combustion chambers. cleanliness is key.
I tried to answer your pm but your inbox is full so I just copy paste it here:

“Yes my story is very long. You can follow it up by following the links in my posts. But short version is this:

Hose connection on TB broke one night, because of too much rusting, while I was driving and engine was badly overheated. Stupid mechanic said head is warped and he only milled the head. So after 2 days I overheat again and again didn’t send the block for decking and just change the gasket again. After 1 month it starts overheating because there was air coming into my cooling system and push all the coolant to reservoir. So I took back my money from that stupid and take the car somewhere else.

They opened up everything and said because too much overheating at first time block was also warped and my exhaust gas was passing to coolant and pressurize it. I think this time they shaved the block also but didn’t touch the head. They said head is ok from the first time milling and it also can’t be shaved again. I guess they shaved the pistons also since they had shaved the block. Didn’t they have to do it? I haven’t tested compression. I don’t know how to do when everything is disassembled.

My only concern now is that engine looks terribly dirty. I have seen some photos of rebuild engines and everything shines like new. So I think something must be wrong with mine. Is it true? How to clean everything so shiny? Can I sand paper everything? Or should I use some cleaner? And also that rust inside the water jacket, which I haven’t yet found a way to clean.

Thanks again man.”

Anyway you answered most of my questions here.


ps. yes you can clean the combustion chamber with a degreaser and right before assembly finish with some liquid soap and warm water. the plastic brush should be soft enough that it wont scratch anything.

if im doing a motor at home i normally do 1. holy cow 2. b12 carb cleaner 3. warm water and a little soap

the carb cleaner will clean without leaving a residue behind. I used to use just b12 but its expensive and bad for your liver and burns/dries out your skin. so use a degreaser thats a bit safer first. Holy cow and i think simple green are pretty safe.

oh and if you end up needing any specs let me know.
I have super fine sand paper and carb cleaner and also degreaser but I have forgot the brands. I will check again tomorrow.

Thanks again for your help! You just solved most of my questions.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
ugh.... I hope you are bolting up a 5 spd when you put the motor back in...:neutral:
Man I also hate auto like all of you and love to drive a stick, but I am using this car for my daily driving and you have no idea how fucked up the traffic jam is here. You will regret buying a manual after second day. I would save on fuel also if I had a manual.
 

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This is going to sound weird but I soaked my disassembled block / head in HOT water with a couple of scoops of OxyClean. After about 1 hour all the brown varnish residue that coats all the surfaces was gone. Did this to my oil pump, girdle, rocker arms and valve cover as well. BTW, I did this BEFORE taking the block / head to the machine shop. After reassembling the motor with fresh piston / rings / bearing, the oil stays VERY clean even after a hard weekend of roadracing. Don't know whats in the OxyClean to do it but IMHO, it works. Don't know what possessed me to try this in the first place either.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Hey guys! I am back again. I was busy last few days moving my car from that stupid workshop to a new one which I have just found and their expertise is engine building. I went and saw their workshop and talked with them. Their staffs are for sure more professional than those morons and their engine building room was as spotless as a surgery room and very well equipped. At least the guy didn’t have any problem to understand the basic things that I was asking him about building my engine and what I should do. So after talking to them and see a few more workshops I decided to tow my car to their workshop. I just hope I don’t get disappointed with this one too.

They didn’t even need to send my engine to machine shop for testing and a simple warpage test with the bar showed that my head is not flat. Imagine me spending that much money and get the same result after 2 months again!!! :cussing: Also he found out that some of the threads inside the block for head studs are damaged and won’t be able to keep the head tight under high pressure. He also told me that my connection rods have changed color and become 2 colors!!! :confused: And I have to change those too.:( After all the problems that he could find without even going into detail testing of parts, he suggest that I buy another D15B engine and start building that since the engine is quite cheap and comes with everything and the place he is going to buy will give 2 weeks warranty on engine and any internal parts that are damaged will be changed without any extra charges. I think it is good idea. Now he is looking to find one engine in good condition for me.

Now I want to plan my engine building so I don’t regret later. What I want is higher performance and stronger N/A, no turbo, no nitro and for daily driving not for track so fuel consumption is also a parameter for me. This engine has 130 hp in stock condition so I want to bring that up with some aftermarket parts if possible. low rpm power is more desirable. Don’t tell me to search I have spent my last 2 days on searching and reading stuff. Couldn’t get what I want.:(

What after market parts do you suggest, exact brand, part number and price if you know?
What I have to ask the machine shop to do for head and block of the new engine for gaining higher performance N/A?

What does it mean that my connecting rods have become 2 colors? :confused:

The guy knows what I should do but I don’t want to be only relying on him. So any suggestion is welcome.

Thanks
 

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good luck man, i hope you listen to the advise carfully and get the block hone'd and clean'd... prepare it right before you waste all the money and time you have in to it by rushing the job...
 

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Discussion Starter #18
good luck man, i hope you listen to the advise carfully and get the block hone'd and clean'd... prepare it right before you waste all the money and time you have in to it by rushing the job...
What advice? I am asking for advice! Could you be more specific regarding machine jobs on head and block? Everybody says different things which make me more confused on what to do! Overbore! Mill head! Deck block! Valve job! 3 degree valve seat! Bigger piston! After market rods! Stage 3 cam! ARP studs! …! And so on! I am not even sure which one is good for N/A and which for boost! I don’t want to spend a lot of money on after market part which later I found out is useful for boost! I want specific advice on after market parts and machine job if anybody can help! And how much power I would gain with that setup!

Thanks anyway for reply and for sure I wont rush it this time.
 

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Live,love,laugh,be real
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What advice? I am asking for advice! Could you be more specific regarding machine jobs on head and block? Everybody says different things which make me more confused on what to do! Overbore! Mill head! Deck block! Valve job! 3 degree valve seat! Bigger piston! After market rods! Stage 3 cam! ARP studs! …! And so on! I am not even sure which one is good for N/A and which for boost! I don’t want to spend a lot of money on after market part which later I found out is useful for boost! I want specific advice on after market parts and machine job if anybody can help! And how much power I would gain with that setup!

Thanks anyway for reply and for sure I wont rush it this time.

this advise... just read what there telling carfully... Brian

they shaved the block with the crank still in it?? man that thing needs to be totally disassembled and cleaned. who knows what oil passages have metal in them that could be disastrous to your motor. same goes for the head IMO. did they do a valve job? or was it just shaved and thats it?

i would have also honed the block..
if there is a decent amount of rust on the cylinder walls then the block needs to be honed.. if there is a crapload of rust it will need to be bored. do either until you reach clean metal and then oil with like wd40 right afterward to keep it from rusting again.
you do not have to bore and hone everytime. altho a quick hone will deglaze the cylinder walls. just keep in mind that the more material you remove the bigger your oil clearance becomes and the less effective the rings will be at sealing. so if you decide to ball hone don't go too buck wild.
It looks like you've already started assembling the block and so unless you want to tear everything apart i wouldnt worry about honing. How do the cylinder walls look? any noticeable scratches?

you said the water jacket was also rusty? since the block and head are both made out of cast aluminum they are not going to be rusting on you. The cylinder walls are going to be the main place you'll see rust.
From what i can see from your picture it looks like its just residue from the coolant or something.

also yes replace all the bearings, replace your rings as well.

you do not need to replace your studs although some people will tell you so.
I know many people as well as myself that have built motors and not replaced the studs and not had an issue. Take a look at each stud after cleaning them- inspect the threads for stretch and to make sure none are stripped. Only worry about replacing if you're going to boost or really build it. If you are going to be visiting high rpms- then also consider getting some aftermarket rod bolts too (and/or some other rods)

you can take your pistons and spray some degreaser on them, let them soak a while and then toss them in the dishwasher for a while with some liquid soap. (don't use the powder kind cause it will leave residue) If you can't use the dishwasher then you can do it by hand as well. you can use a soft plastic brush to scrub off the crap. Make sure to oil the rods and pin really well afterwards if they are still attached


(the black one) and

(the green one)
is what i use when doing it at home.

also before removing your rings you can use them to clean the ringlands by pressing down and turning.
if its all commin apart now, deffinately get everything new, its not worth havin to do all the work again later, best to start from brand new...for how cheap head bolts are I would replace them too, most people don't, but you've had the head off a few times, and bolts do stretch..
ya you should be able to see the surface rusts and scratches visually. i'd take it to the machinists and have them check the inside diameter with something called a dial bore gauge.
take this measurement minus the diameter of the piston to figure out the oil clearance you have. there should be a spec for max oil clearance. if its really out of range you'd need to bore and use the next size up pistons.
(when you measure the pistons keep in mind that they are not round. so if the spec is really off, try measuring from the opposite direction.)

-anyway the machine shop really should have checked this for you already tho!-

i personally wouldn't waste time with cleaning the water jacket. its not really hurting anything.
you can try squirting it with b12 or brakleen and using a bottle brush in there.

oh and i meant "really building" as building up the motor to be high compression or run on boost or high rpm etc. not just building it to stock specifications. It looks like you are just rebuilding your motor to drive around in your daily driver with the occassional flogging :)


and i wrote it in the pm but will paste it here too. your combustion chamber looks a little scraped up. the scrapes will be easy places for the carbon to build up. I'd try to smooth down some of those scratches.
try crocus cloth (this is what i use- but its difficult to find) or very lightweight sandpaper. i imagine you could also try a polishing compound.
I'd leave the valves in for the majority of the time while your doing this, just so you don't mess up the valve job. then take the valves out and get the areas you couldn't get to as well.
Make sure you take the valves out and clean the valves, seats, and combustion chambers. cleanliness is key.


ps. yes you can clean the combustion chamber with a degreaser and right before assembly finish with some liquid soap and warm water. the plastic brush should be soft enough that it wont scratch anything.

if im doing a motor at home i normally do 1. holy cow 2. b12 carb cleaner 3. warm water and a little soap

the carb cleaner will clean without leaving a residue behind. I used to use just b12 but its expensive and bad for your liver and burns/dries out your skin. so use a degreaser thats a bit safer first. Holy cow and i think simple green are pretty safe.


oh and if you end up needing any specs let me know.

all this info was right here the whole time bro... just read and pay attention to the details... as your doing your build alot of this will start to make sense... im affraid i cant speek intelegently about a rebuild but, i do know good advice when i see/ read it...
 
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