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The Wife and the Car
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Discussion Starter #1
This question is for guys who have built a lot of Honda Motors.
In particular various heads thru the years.
Or at least studied them.

How would you describe Honda's evolution from its early heads thru its evolution to its most recent heads.

I am always very interested in the subject of evolution of engines i.e. getting into the heads of the white coats at the factory and trying to think how they where thinking. But to do this you need to buy and study pretty much every engine they have come out with. I spent one life time studying the evolution of the Yamaha two stroke twins and do not have the time or the access to study the Honda heads.

In particular im interested in knowing how they translated from 8 vale to 16 valve to the latest models. How did the port shapes change. How did the valve angles change.

What engine would you guys consider the ultimate honda sports car engine ?


I have checked out the wiki on Honda and have gone looking for discussions on the various engine heads and cam but could not figure out much.

Any guidance or discussion on this topic would be very interesting.
 

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What engine would you guys consider the ultimate honda sports car engine ?
That comes down to 2 engines imo

The modern engine:
F20C

The simple engine:
B18C5


I only say that because you specified 'sports car engine', which doesnt mean the best in a straight line, but the ones that can rev the most.


I honestly believe that when it comes to MOST forced induction applications (street cars) the D series engines are better than the VTEC B series engines. With forced induction you dont want huge ports and wild cams. Most of the best turbo engines are TERRIBLE na engines.
The biggest downfall of the D is probably the common transmissions.
 

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What is considered best is quite opinionated. You would have to be application specific to try and answer what engine with certain design criteria would perform to the standards of what it was designed for
 

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The Wife and the Car
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Discussion Starter #6
Yeah man Liked Id go far with all the responces so far.
LOL No its just something Id like to know.

By best I mean the head or engine that flows the best.

I was looking for comments on the direction they took with swirl in their ports.
How they favoured velocity over volume on their latter heads.

It you want to make power with a particular engine its best to know its evolution.

For example. May guys take a RD engine and port the shit out of it. In an effort to make 40 BHP. WHy bother when you can just pick up a LC barrel and see how Yamaha Made 55 out of the same engine 8 years latter.

There have to be famous engines either based on their heads or the cams, or the ECU.
Or the manifold. Which ones made the most power and why ?
 

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Well from what Bisi and others have said, the best head out sofar is still the F22A for 4cylinders. this head in stock form flows as much as a ported B head. and flows more than a stock 350 v8 head.


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Default Re: Do these flow numbers look good? (Turbowa)
Excellent test, turbowa!

My base numbers are within 2% of what you have shown. Pirate also hit the nail on the head: a stock F22A out flows most street ported B-series heads.

Goodluck with your build, and let me know if you need any technology!

309 CFM with the stock intake valve
 

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To answer some of your questions:

The vast majority of Honda engines manufactured from 1988 forward were 16 valve, and there were no real notable engines before that. You can read up on the Honda E series if you're really interested in earlier engines.

The ultimate Honda sports car engine would be something like this:
Honda Worldwide | Motor Sports | Formula 1 | Spec
Or whatever is in this:
Honda Worldwide | January 18, 2010 "Honda introduces HSV-010 GT for competing in GT500 class of SUPER GT Series"

But since 88' the predominant Honda production engines have been D, B, F, K and H series'. Of those I like 4: D, B, F and K.

If you're just talking heads, their performance order would go:
K/F
B
D

But all of them have different advantages and disadvantages like cost, gearing, chasis. Just depends on what you're looking for.

K20, F20/22C, and F22A heads all flow about the same (intake ~300 CFM stock, ~350+ ported). I haven't researched B or D series head flow much, but I can tell you at least for the D-series I've seen wide variations in reported flow numbers. I've seen some companies/individuals claim one D casting will flow 150 CFM in stock form, and someone else claim that same type of casting will flow 215 CFM stock. Notable evolutions through these engine series have been the development of variable valve timing mechanisms, starting with VTEC and then iVTEC, and in the most modern engines the incorporation of COP distributorless ignition and DBW throttle. These engines all have unique geometry inside. For the D-series a raging debate has always been which of the A6, Z6, and Y8 heads are superior. For the B-series the same arugment has always persisted about the B16 (Si) and B18 (GSR) heads. The only heads worth anything out of the F-series are the FWD F22A, and RWD F20/22Cs found in S2000s. The rest of the F-series are garbage. There are some junk K-series engines as well, like those found in the Accord, Element, CRV and 02-05 USDM Civics.

That's a very general overview. For more specifics I'd say you'll need to search, or find someone who has more time than to write just a general overview.
 

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The Wife and the Car
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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)

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id stay away from dave hickman. hes a scam artist. i still never recieved my adjustable FPR from him, even contacted him on the phone and talked to him, and he said yeah itill be out, after countless people told me to stay away. screw him.

pass out rep foo!
 

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you should know just as well as i do that all flow benches register air flow differently. just like a dyno, its only a tuning tool. set a bench mark and try to surpass it.

even then, flow bench numbers only account for one part of the intake cycle which we all know is not the whole picture.
 

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The Wife and the Car
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Discussion Starter #16
After spending another day searching I found this rather intresting post.
And the author hit the nail on the head when he said its funny that people are throwing cams on their heads without flow data. He was right.

If ever any info is going to turn up. It may on the link below.

http://www.d-series.org/forums/engine-building/136371-y8-z6-flowbench-information.html

My approach is a bit different. I pick the cam to match my power band requirements and then port the head to match the cam.
 

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Last time I met with Bisi @ Joilet he simply told me to find a F22 head and look the the ports, I would understand everything from there. Bisi knows I have a background in V8's....one look at the exhaust port on the F22...with three of my fat fingers stuck into it, the light bulb was blinding!

It is the WHOLE combo starting with the camshaft.

The exhaust ports are bigger than any OEM SBC, heck might even give a BBC exhaust port a run for the money.
 

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Last time I met with Bisi @ Joilet he simply told me to find a F22 head and look the the ports, I would understand everything from there. Bisi knows I have a background in V8's....one look at the exhaust port on the F22...with three of my fat fingers stuck into it, the light bulb was blinding!

It is the WHOLE combo starting with the camshaft.

The exhaust ports are bigger than any OEM SBC, heck might even give a BBC exhaust port a run for the money.
So if I'm understanding this right Honda went with the velocity on the intake and volume on the exhaust. Thats interesting.
 

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The Wife and the Car
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Discussion Starter #20
Ok since I cant get pictures of the F22 head with a F22 manifold.
Ill have to ask you guys for help again.
What is the diffirence in size between the manifold side port and the head port.
And how large is the step between the head and the manifold on a stock motor.
 
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