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94 Integra
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Actually the valve body is ALL of the purple, but I think it is 2 pieces. In your 1st picture you can see how it's much wider than the input shaft. I don't think the Integra parts use a small pin like the Miata, the diagram makes me think they're pressed together. Your orange box circles the lower/inner half that is connected to the gear, the rest (outer purple parts) connect directly to the input shaft.

As far as the weld, you'd be putting it where the lower seal is. In your first pic that is the black band between the large bearing and the lower half of the valve body. In the picture below the seal is colored red. The input shalf half is colored orange, the gear half is colored green, the bearing blue. You'd put a weld in the pink circles - connect the bottom of the orange to the side of the green in that area. Just be careful not to get splatter on the side of the orange or where the bearing presses onto. You will want it to spin freely when reassembled.

 

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Now that I think of it, there may be a limiting pin inside the two halves. That may indeed be what you colored red. Some people feel the welds have to hold up a train bridge, but when you look at how thin the pin & torsion rod are you'll see it doesn't need to be much. Even if the weld fails, it won't be any less safe than an unwelded shaft.

The pic below shows the Miata outer body ("orange") removed from the shaft & inner body ("green"). I think their outer body is connected to the input shaft via a pin, while the integra is either pressed on - but it might use a pin. I don't have a spare rack to pull apart.

 

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This thread just got very interesting!!
 

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the artist formerly known as drexelstudent11
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The input shaft on the right is connected to the torsion bar, and the torsion bar is what moves the gearbox parts. Imagine it twisting like a piece of licorice. The way this works is it turns the valve body before the internal gears, so the fluid gets directed to push left or right. It stays twisted while you're turning the wheel. Once you stop turning the wheel, the PS fluid untwists the torsion bar. That's how PS steering moves the rack only as far as you move the wheel. It even helps prevent wandering on the road since the bump or rut twists the torsion bar the other way, and some fluid gets applied in the opposite direction until it's untwisted & realigned with the steering wheel.
so if you've got a slippy PS belt, that could contribute to wandering/odd steering feel at speed even if it's normally okay because of the sharp impulse?
 

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EG8
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To add to your weld comment, the non power steering rack is also much thinner.


Using the diagram, I'm just trying to make sense of (more of physically picture) how welding the lower half of inner will lock both sides of the torsion bar...

Without having the parts in front of me, what if the pin locks the bottom torsion (that is thermally fitted to the steering gear) to the inner valve body? Then the top of the inner needs to be welded to the top half of the torsion bar (which is equally fitted to the rack input splines)

At least given your new diagram, that could be a possible interpretation.

I can dive deeper into this when I take apart my integra rack.



Another side note: I also think that this torsion bar flex is pretty minute... Possibly enough to fall under OEM specs maybe. When I was calculating these things in class we were talking about very tiny % differences. Of course these are amplified in orders of magnitude by the ratio of the steering wheel diameter, but I just want others to put into perspective the other components that lead to steering play. Ex: the steering bushings would cause more play before you notice what we are talking about here.

Perhaps Biggie's steering rack ES bushing upgrade overshadows the ill effect HiProfile and I are discussing.
 

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94 Integra
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If you read up how the system works, the key is the input shaft moves the valve body BEFORE the gear/rack. The top has to be connected to the shaft for that to work. It must spin the valve body a hair more when the gear/rack encounters resistance, then it adds increasing pressure to counter the increasing resistance. It's actually brilliant.

It may be a small amount of slop, but it's there. I've driven enough converted racks before & after were I can't ignore the feel of it, nor the clunks when I hit a pothole/etc. I've only felt a Civic rack with ES bushings, but before now I just figured I was dealing with old worn racks.
 

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EG8
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Interesting. Yea, Biggie just got his car on the road brand new inner and outers, new hardrace bushings and sticky tires... Not much seat time with the rack but hasn't said much.

Hopefully he'll update, if not I will...

I might see if I can lock my integra rack and with the steering wheel try to feel it.


You said it makes a clunking noise? Any videos or anything in regards to the sound? How does having fluid/being looped affect this clunck/play? I'd slightly imagine on a full rack (with reservoir) this point in play might feel slight different. But that's my pure speculation (viscosity of fluid "slowing down" the torsion, maybe increasing the sloppy feeling, causing it to max out a tiny bit slower).
 

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Looped fluid only adds a bit of resistance, but only because your movements are pushing it around. It'd be like blowing thru a straw that's empty then doing it with some drops of water inside. The rack shouldn't be full, it should have just a trace of fluid to keep things lubed up.

The play in the Integra rack is certainly not as noticable as the Civic rack. The Civic rack has an audible clunk AND jerks the wheel regardless of direction. For the Integra rack it's mostly in reverse or at very extreme wheel angles and it's only audible in the most extreme circumstances (full lock in reverse over uneven concrete edges). I may be able to record it once the 2 feet of snow melts off the car, lol.

I think it has to do with how the valve body works. When the road obstruction allows the tires to turn further than your current steering input, enough to straighten out AND reverse the twist on the torsion bar, I think it blocks the air & fluid that is trying to recirculate. That may be why it feels like the rims just hit a solid object. When I go full lock and pull out of my driveway, it feels like I just curbed it when it hits the ridge on the drainage channel (less than 1" height difference).
 

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EG8
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FOUND A VIDEO:


Seems to be a decent amount of play. We'll see how it turns out this weekend...

I wish that he removed the outer body so that we can really see where it moves underneath. I still almost want to say that the weld should be higher connecting the top of the green to the bottom of the input shaft.

The "play" also happens pretty instantaneously, which makes it difficult to detect on top of what I believe is OEM specs compensating for any of these ill effects...
 

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Great job. I think I am both right & wrong about the weld location. It should still be in the same relative location, except the spool valve body has to be removed. I looked further in the service manual and there does appear to be a pin on the spool valve's sleeve, as well as a circlip. The pin does not appear to require removal, it's just a groove it slips into when the sleeve is slid down into place. The picture shows the pin & circlip location, and the general spot you'd want the weld. It will all look like a Miata shaft, so you can also reference the pictures in their write-ups to see where to weld.



If you left the sleeve on, you'd have to weld the opposite end of that sleeve. It would be in the location of the other seal in the multi-color picture farther above, so I think it would essentially unseal the gearbox.

The vid linked to above had another recommended video which I watched. I think it explains perfectly how this torsion bar system works & what's connected to what.

 

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Another thing I just realized, you may not have to remove the piston seal on the rack. The two metal pipes that run from the pinion/valve housing to the tube on either side of the piston can simply be cut & looped. Then you can plug (or loop) the 2 remaining holes on the pinion/valve housing.



It may have a little bit more resistance vs removing the piston, but I don't think it will be noticeable. The common method is to loop the high & low pressure inlet/outlet locations. This forces the air & residual fluid to move through the rack housing, the connecting pipes [that you'd loop instead], the valve body, then through the looped tubes. That's a long way to travel compared to having the two pipes looped. The looped/pluged ports on the valve body portion won't have any fluid or air moving through them any more, so you can seal it however you want.

I thought about suggesting a vent on the looped tube, but I really don't see it necessary. Even on a serious track car, the pressure build up from any thermal expansion is going to be a tiny fraction of the pressures applied by the P/S pump (1-5 psi vs >500psi). As I mentioned earlier I have 3 cars ATM with conventionally looped & unvented steering boxes and have had no issues in the last 10 years.
 

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EG8
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I was about to link to the video also before I noticed that you did!

@1:14 the components are finally shown and then @ 1:45 when the input side is slid on it makes sense. From what I was able to see in the diagram before the video, it seemed that the middle of the input shaft was a seperate piece. The pics showed a ridge after the splines which led me to agree with the OE diagram in that regard.

So I though that all of the green in your pic all moved in the same direction as the rack pinion. But there's only 3 pieces (4 if you include the torsion bar)

The blue and purple move in the same direction locked by the pinion and then the green is the piece in 1:45.

And alternative to welding would be to lock the pin:

Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18 Show Content


Since all of the systems are almost identical, there should be a pin like this also which is where the "Tron steezy way"-esque ideas kicks in again.

Or we can weld specifically on the pin also. But We'd need to figure out how to get to it first... hmmm..

You can see the cut out for it on the pinion to the right. EDIT: The cut out may or may not be what I'm talking about hrmm.. (also because this input shaft doesn't have the fluid holes/dips, it confused me)

My question is, would there be an advantage/disadvantage to keep the fluid in the rack area empty/half/full? Besides leaking past the seals at least (small reason why I converted to "manual", to avoid leaks). I feel like we should stuff grease in it's place somehow and then running the rack "bone dry" would be ok...
 

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I was actually thinking about fluid level but left that bit out - I think there only has to be a small amount. What areas really get lubed by the PS fluid? The valve body, the piston seal, and the rack seals on each side of the piston chamber. At this point the valve body only needs a light coat on the seals. The bearings use their own oil/grease for lube; the pinion & rack teeth use regular grease, as does the rack guide. In other words, only a few drops are really needed as long as you keep dust & moisture out; a vent would lead to fluid break-down.

I think the most you'd need is around 1/3-2/3 full, measured when a side is at full lock. I'm thinking you could remove the pipes on the rack tube, point the holes sideways (keep rack level), then turn it lock to lock. The remaining fluid would fill each side no more than 1/2 of the way when it goes full lock. When centered there would still be enough fluid to wick up the sides of the tube & seals. In any case there are actually two seals per side of the rack, a "cylinder end seal" and "piston ring seal". So one is permanently lubed, and does not even need any PS fluid.


As far as that limiter pin, I think it's actually visible in that diagram. If you look at the top 2 blue rectangles, the one on the right is that pin for the sleeve and the one on the left is the torsion bar limiter. If you look at the pics in the link below, you will see one with the outter centering pin visible on the sleeve's exterior and another with it visible inside.

Replacing steering rack boot - installation tips? - Team Integra Forums - Team Integra


The other pin that limits the torsion bar should be in the same spot I'm recommending you weld, right above the bearing. I think the picture below shows it, just barely. Look at the "pinion shaft" label on the top-left, then follow the first "i" straight up - you can just make out the dark notch that I bet the limiter fits in. If that is indeed the limiter, all you'd have to do is put two decent tack welds to fill in the gaps. I'd still prefer welding up at least 1/2 the perimeter just to be certain.


Steering Rack Pinion Teardown & Rebuild - Team Integra Forums - Team Integra
 

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98 Civic HX D16Y5
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Anyone know which power steering racks fit which models? Like the 89 dx rack used for the write up, will it fit the 6th gen body?
 

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EG8
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Been a while since I revisited this thread, but I believe you are right with the fluid lvl.

If we remove the valve body and plug the holes and then loop the piston to itself we can have a closed system w/o cutting the piston out. Also removing all those seals on the valve body should decrease effort as well.



The steering pinion would need zero grease/fluid besides the seal and bearing at that point as well. Maybe all PS conversions have been making the system way more complex than it needed to be.

Anyway, the only issue lies in the idea that the rack seals are leaking. But cutting out the fluid from the pinion should reduce chances of fluid leak as well.
 

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\/Your Mom Was Here\/
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From my other thread of thought...

What about stripping all of the PS fluid away and using a light coating a moly grease on everything?

That PS fluid might get hot without any kind of circulation for it, the grease is at least rated for higher temps without breaking down.
 

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EG8
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Lol Beer!

My response in the other thread:

Anyway, the fluid in the cylinder only needs to be maybe 3/4 or 1/2. Any heat/pressure build up will be decently minimal(again maybe only 3-5 PSI max sounds accurate, aAnyway, the fluid in the cylinder only needs to be maybe 3/4 or 1/2. Any heat/pressure build up will be decently minimal(again maybe only 3-5 PSI max sounds accurate) and the PS fluid will act more like a heat sink than anything else - friction is in the seal, not fluid.

The grease would be best, but how practical can you grease the inside without fully disassembling the rack. Where Hiiprofile and I are getting at is if you choose to disassemble, you minus well cut the piston. If you don't, this is an option.nd the PS fluid will act more like a heat sink than anything else - friction is in the seal, not fluid.

The grease would be best, but how practical can you grease the inside without fully disassembling the rack. Where Hiiprofile and I are getting at is if you choose to disassemble, you minus well cut the piston. If you don't, this is an option.
 

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From my other thread of thought...

What about stripping all of the PS fluid away and using a light coating a moly grease on everything?

That PS fluid might get hot without any kind of circulation for it, the grease is at least rated for higher temps without breaking down.
The heat in a PS system is almost all from the pump & the fluid being forced at high pressure thru tiny holes/passages. When it's looped as pictured the only friction is between the teeth, in the 2 bearings, and between the 3 seals (all minor). It will probably pick up more heat from the exhaust than thru fluid friction. All of my racks have been fully sealed, and that's w/o removing the piston seal - no issues with pressure popping seals.

A manual rack uses grease, and that's all. I'd only consider grease for the input shaft seal & valve body parts. Only a small amount of fluid is needed for the rest, as it will splash-lube everything. Remember this is all low-speed stuff, not high-speed high-force stuff like a RWD differential.
 
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