[drtalon123]

It is in two gears at the same time, 2nd and 4th:

 

[transzex]

shift arm A is not into the shift forks properly....

 

[Oldcivicjoe]

Wish I would have just posted a picture here when this happened on that 8th or 9th I did. I instead took 6 hours taking shafts back apart and putting them back together trying to find out how I faked up 😅

 

[transzex]

It takes most people three hands to drop the shafts back in, I have no issues most of the time. Get them wedged in there like the last picture and you'll need a hammer to get the shafts/forks out. It gets easier after the 500th time.

 

[buzzbomb]

Thank you for the replies everyone, I figured it would take a few tries to get it right.

shift arm A is not into the shift forks properly....

it figures, I was looking on the wrong (interlock) side...

 

[buzzbomb]

so I was able to pull the shaft/slider assy out, no hammer required, just pull and jiggle.
neither the shift rod or shift arm shaft moved, here is a pic of shift arm C, seated in shift arm A.

is it supposed to be different?

 

[transzex]

My diagram has them labeled different. Interlock and shift arm B in your diagram. I need to check my manuals, I know Helms has mislabeled things before.

Having been invited to another podcast I'm looking to start filming some of my tricks/hacks. I'll have my son do the editing/posting to YT

 

[drtalon123]

My diagram has them labeled different. Interlock and shift arm B in your diagram. I need to check my manuals, I know Helms has mislabeled things before.

Having been invited to another podcast I'm looking to start filming some of my tricks/hacks. I'll have my son do the editing/posting to YT

Bitchin!

 

[buzzbomb]

My diagram has them labeled different. Interlock and shift arm B in your diagram. I need to check my manuals, I know Helms has mislabeled things before.

so maybe then before trying to put the shaft 'bundle' in, put the interlock & shift arm b like:

and line up the slider ends like:

hopefully they can stay lined up...

 

[transzex]

I flip the arm up to engage the teeth on the ring gear, Counter shaft case bearing needs staked in ASAP!

Your pics are clear, why I ask for Tranny Pron pics. I see things others will never see.

 

[buzzbomb]

Counter shaft case bearing needs staked in ASAP!

Ok, bad picture, but I done it.

two days, a smashed finger and 94549645945494594523523532454524559 cuss words later...

all three sliders are seated on the interlock and shift arm, and bolt threaded in.

 

[buzzbomb]

sorry for being a post whore...

assembled - sort of, still need the reverse parts and the main shaft bearing that kept falling off is now too tight :madface:
BUT it turns like a ... gearbox. no binding (at least in whatever gear it is in now)

 

[transzex]

4th gear! make sure it is in nuetral and centered before installing the inter lock guide bolt from the bell housing side.

 

[buzzbomb]

4th gear! make sure it is in nuetral and centered before installing the inter lock guide bolt from the bell housing side.

Sure! Except, how do I know when it's in neutral and centered? (when the main shaft is not turning the countershaft...)
So there are 3 detents in the Shift Rod, and in all three positions, the countershaft is engaged with the main shaft.
And how can you tell what gear its in? it looks like they are all engaged to me
Also, it doesn't seem to go in reverse. is that a problem?
How does the transmission know whether the shift lever is on the driver or middle or passenger side of the pattern?
(1/2 or 3/4 or 5/Reverse)
Thank you!

 

[drtalon123]

So there are 3 detents in the Shift Rod, and in all three positions, the countershaft is engaged with the main shaft.
And how can you tell what gear its in? it looks like they are all engaged to me

Thats the beauty of a fully synchronized transmission, the main and countershaft gearsets are always in mesh and turning. Its the SLIDERS that engage the gear to the synchronizer hub, which in turn binds the gear to the shaft itself:

When the 1/2 slider is down, the countershaft is locked against 1st gear. When it's up, it's locked against 2nd gear.

Notice 1st and 2nd gear on the mainshaft are SOLID as part of the mainshaft. Yet 1st and 2nd on the countershaft are free to rotate around the shaft thanks to needle bearings, UNTIL the slider moves up OR down to lock those gears against the synchronizer hub. The synchronizer hub is physically locked to the countershaft with splines, and the action of the slider collar moving up or down, it's teeth end up locking the gear AND the hub together. This causes the countershaft to turn only at the gear ratio selected.

The same thing happens for 3rd, 4th and 5th gears, except this time, those gears float on bearings around the mainshaft, and are solid on the countershaft. The collar action that locks the gears to the synchronizer hub happens on the mainshaft for those gears instead.

The transmission is in neutral when all sliders are NEVER engaging any synchros or gears, they kind of float between everything.

There are spring rings that go around each synchro. these rings keep the sliders centered, so the slider can't magically "fall" into a gear, these rings located here:

Those rings provide a resistance that the slider must overcome during a shift, in order for the slider to actually move past in order to select a gear. The slider pushing on this ring is what causes the synchro to push up against its cone, beginning the braking process to slow down/match the gear speed to the synchronizer hub speed, so things don't grind when making a shift.

Lets go back to your picture you sent, and you can see where 4th gear is selected in your image. The slider is pushed up against 4th gear, meaning 4th gear is engaged with the slider to the synchronizer hub:

If it was floating between 3rd and 4th like my gear stack example here, your trans would be in neutral:

Basically, if you can see both sets of metal gear teeth and brass synchro teeth showing on either end of the 1/2 and 3/4 sliders, and the one set of metal and brass teeth near the 5th slider, no gear is selected and the trans is in neutral. When metal and brass teeth are hiding behind a slider, a gear is selected.

Also, it doesn't seem to go in reverse. is that a problem?

Are you trying to bench shift this using the shift shaft and a screw driver? If so, the reverse shift requires a bit of mangina.

If it's in the car and it doesn't shift into reverse, that's a problem.

How does the transmission know whether the shift lever is on the driver or middle or passenger side of the pattern?
(1/2 or 3/4 or 5/Reverse)

The transmission doesn't know anything lol, its pretty dumb. But the guys at Honda who designed it were damn smart. The mechanical box takes care of itself and is a very clever all mechanical contraption.

The shift shaft poking out of the trans (the thing your shift linkage, knuckle and bitch pin attach to) is what moves the selector forks to select gears. As long as you mimic the movement of the shift shaft with a screwdriver through the bitch pin hole, it will shift like it normally does in the car.

You just have to be aware of the shifter pivot and desired rotation movement. Inside the car, when you select 1st gear with the gearknob, you move it left, then push up/forward.

But because the shifter pivot point is mounted in the tunnel of the car, this action is opposite underneath the car. The shift linkage actually moves to the right and down/backwards.

This causes the shift shaft to rotate slightly counterclockwise, and a pulling action applied, not a pushing action. Mimicing this on the bench with a screwdriver will cause 1st gear to be selected. So on and so forth for the other gears.

Hopefully this kinda makes sense. It's much easier to explain this in person lol.

In short, the transmission doesn't have to "know" anything. The shift shaft, selector forks, sliders, etc. can only follow its mechanically designed shift pattern, nothing else (so long as everything was installed correctly).

 

[Oldcivicjoe]

Drop a screwdriver through the bitch pin hole, the shift pattern will be mirrored but not reversed entirely so something like
2 4 R
1 3 5
You can see which gear it's in by looking at which edge of which slider is engaged with the syncro of which gear.

Thats the beauty of a fully synchronized transmission, the main and countershaft gearsets are always in mesh and turning. Its the SLIDERS that engage the gear to the synchronizer hub, which in turn binds the gear to the shaft itself:

View attachment 143310

When the 1/2 slider is down, the countershaft is locked against 1st gear. When it's up, it's locked against 2nd gear.

Notice 1st and 2nd gear on the mainshaft are SOLID as part of the mainshaft. Yet 1st and 2nd on the countershaft are free to rotate around the shaft thanks to needle bearings, UNTIL the slider moves up OR down to lock those gears against the synchronizer hub. The synchronizer hub is physically locked to the countershaft with splines, and the action of the slider collar moving up or down, it's teeth end up locking the gear AND the hub together. This causes the countershaft to turn only at the gear ratio selected.

The same thing happens for 3rd, 4th and 5th gears, except this time, those gears float on bearings around the mainshaft, and are solid on the countershaft. The collar action that locks the gears to the synchronizer hub happens on the mainshaft for those gears instead.

The transmission is in neutral when all sliders are NEVER engaging any synchros or gears, they kind of float between everything.

There are spring rings that go around each synchro. these rings keep the sliders centered, so the slider can't magically "fall" into a gear, these rings located here:

View attachment 143311

Those rings provide a resistance that the slider must overcome during a shift, in order for the slider to actually move past in order to select a gear.

Lets go back to your picture you sent, and you can see where 4th gear is selected in your image. The slider is pushed up against 4th gear, meaning 4th gear is engaged with the slider to the synchronizer hub:

View attachment 143313

If it was floating between 3rd and 4th like my gear stack example here, your trans would be in neutral:

View attachment 143312

Basically, if you can see both sets of metal gear teeth and brass synchro teeth showing on either end of the 1/2 and 3/4 sliders, and the one set of metal and brass teeth near the 5th slider, no gear is selected and the trans is in neutral. When metal and brass teeth are hiding behind a slider, a gear is selected.




Are you trying to bench shift this using the shift shaft and a screw driver? If so, the reverse shift requires a bit of mangina.

If it's in the car and it doesn't shift into reverse, that's a problem.





The transmission doesn't know anything lol, its pretty dumb. But the guys at Honda who designed it were damn smart. The mechanical box takes care of itself and is a very clever all mechanical contraption.

The shift shaft poking out of the trans (the thing your shift linkage, knuckle and bitch pin attach to) is what moves the selector forks to select gears. As long as you mimic the movement of the shift shaft with a screwdriver through the bitch pin hole, it will shift like it normally does in the car.

You just have to be aware of the shifter pivot and desired rotation movement. Inside the car, when you select 1st gear with the gearknob, you move it left, then push up/forward.

But because the shifter pivot point is mounted in the tunnel of the car, this action is opposite underneath the car. The shift linkage actually moves to the right and down/backwards.

This causes the shift shaft to rotate slightly counterclockwise, and a pulling action applied, not a pushing action. Mimicing this on the bench with a screwdriver will cause 1st gear to be selected. So on and so forth for the other gears.

Hopefully this kinda makes sense. It's much easier to explain this in person lol.

In short, the transmission doesn't have to "know" anything. The shift shaft, selector forks, sliders, etc. can only follow its mechanically designed shift pattern, nothing else (so long as everything was installed correctly).

So the book you wrote is why I was having issues getting my simple reply to post 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣

 

[drtalon123]

My bad hahaha

 

[Oldcivicjoe]

Don't forget your reverse idler and associated hardware!


Ask me how I know... wait don't, it's embarrassing...

 

[buzzbomb]

Thank you guys for taking the time tor reply.
I will need to read this a few times for it to sink in...
I was asking a lot of questions not just for myself but for anyone else reading this.

I did put in the reverse gear and selector. lol I was expecting to finally the get the 'shaft bundle' in, only to find the thrust washers on the floor.

 

[buzzbomb]

So would this be neutral?

or am I overlooking something?
how about a throw back thursday pic, anyone?