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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is a fuel related topic. My tuner told me that 91 octane in my state isnt going to allow me to make my power goals. Due to season he also said that e85 content changes. Great, now im left with buying it online. My tuner suggested ethanol one but it seems there are 3 types and im confused with what I need. The goal is around 400hp. Setup: d16y8, 1300cc injectors, aem e85 340 pump vitara setup. Also do I need a new mahle fuel filter for the e85? I just replaced it less than a 1k ago. If I get a tune with with ethanol one does that mean I can only run that specific fuel? Or could I use pump e85 after?
 

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Who is your tuner? I’m surprised he/she wasn’t able to answer all of these questions for you.
One Ethanol is available in two flavors as far as I know. S is 85% EtOH and R is over 85% EtOH.
You’ll need to install a flex fuel sensor so you can make adjustments based on the EtOH content in your tank.
Ethanol is considered HAZMAT so shipping may start to get cost prohibitive unless you buy in bulk, and if you do buy in bulk you’ll need to properly store it until you’re ready to use it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Who is your tuner? I’m surprised he/she wasn’t able to answer all of these questions for you.
One Ethanol is available in two flavors as far as I know. S is 85% EtOH and R is over 85% EtOH.
You’ll need to install a flex fuel sensor so you can make adjustments based on the EtOH content in your tank.
Ethanol is considered HAZMAT so shipping may start to get cost prohibitive unless you buy in bulk, and if you do buy in bulk you’ll need to properly store it until you’re ready to use it.
I just plan on running e85 period. My tuner never said anything about a sensor as i wont be combining fuels. I dont really have a choice because good levels of 85 arent available now. So it sounds like i should get the "S"?
 

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Do you plan on this being a street car that you drive often? If so, you should DEFINITELY consider getting a flex fuel sensor setup for input to your ECU/tuning solution. Its a bitch otherwise, for both you AND your tuner's sanity.

What level of ethanol is at your pump currently? Have you measured? Go grab a gallon of what is at your pump, and test it. If you're cheap like me, you can measure E content with a Mason jar and water without ploping down 15 bucks for an E tester, which is basically a glass test tube with a sticker on it and lines.

It's true for winter blend they add a bit more gasoline for startup drivability reasons, but even E65 will still put your theoretical octane rating near 100.

You should be able to hit 350WHP pretty safely with pump E, regardless of the season.

Do you run Hondata? The V3 S300 accepts the GM/continental flex fuel sensor as a plug and play item, and provides plenty of scaling options. If you are running Neptune, like me, your scaling options are more limited, and FF sensor is not plug and play but it is still possible to run a FF sensor using a converter box.

Having an FF sensor is good regardless, to know exactly how much E is in your fuel. Your tuner can use this knowledge to scale timing appropriately. Otherwise, he's either going to tune you assuming you have the best quality E85 (exactly 85%) from places like VP, or he's going to tune on the very safe side not knowing what you might put in the tank, but hoping there is some E content in there. Both can be risky unless you know EXACTLY what you're putting in the tank.

Honestly, when I was contemplating running E, I ran into the same thought processes. Just get a FF sensor setup, tune for pump gas plus tune for whatever your pump E is at now, then your tuner can scale you a bit more timing/boost into the modifiers when the sensor detects higher ethanol content.

The FF sensor not only gives you:
  • The ability to know the E content in your tank
  • Your tuner the ability to know how much E is in the tank
  • Your tuner the ability to make guesstimates on scaling timing/boost based higher or lower on how your engine performed on pump E
  • The ability to scale your maps if you ever need to put only gasoline in the tank (cant find an E pump)
It future proofs your setup and gives you way more flexibility to anticipate changes.

I hit 370WHP with pump E... it contained 75% ethanol at the time of the tune. My goal was 375, not too shabby:

Text Line Plot Slope Wave

Since then, I've filled up a number of times with E stations around my area, and E content has moved from 60% to 80%. The car still performs like a crackhead drinking redbull, and has never once knocked at any load. I literally fill up at the pump, and mat the pedal. No worries with the E sensor and a good tune to accompany it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Do you plan on this being a street car that you drive often? If so, you should DEFINITELY consider getting a flex fuel sensor setup for input to your ECU/tuning solution. Its a bitch otherwise, for both you AND your tuner's sanity.

What level of ethanol is at your pump currently? Have you measured? Go grab a gallon of what is at your pump, and test it. If you're cheap like me, you can measure E content with a Mason jar and water without ploping down 15 bucks for an E tester, which is basically a glass test tube with a sticker on it and lines.

It's true for winter blend they add a bit more gasoline for startup drivability reasons, but even E65 will still put your theoretical octane rating near 100.

You should be able to hit 350WHP pretty safely with pump E, regardless of the season.

Do you run Hondata? The V3 S300 accepts the GM/continental flex fuel sensor as a plug and play item, and provides plenty of scaling options. If you are running Neptune, like me, your scaling options are more limited, and FF sensor is not plug and play but it is still possible to run a FF sensor using a converter box.

Having an FF sensor is good regardless, to know exactly how much E is in your fuel. Your tuner can use this knowledge to scale timing appropriately. Otherwise, he's either going to tune you assuming you have the best quality E85 (exactly 85%) from places like VP, or he's going to tune on the very safe side not knowing what you might put in the tank, but hoping there is some E content in there. Both can be risky unless you know EXACTLY what you're putting in the tank.

Honestly, when I was contemplating running E, I ran into the same thought processes. Just get a FF sensor setup, tune for pump gas plus tune for whatever your pump E is at now, then your tuner can scale you a bit more timing/boost into the modifiers when the sensor detects higher ethanol content.

The FF sensor not only gives you:
  • The ability to know the E content in your tank
  • Your tuner the ability to know how much E is in the tank
  • Your tuner the ability to make guesstimates on scaling timing/boost based higher or lower on how your engine performed on pump E
  • The ability to scale your maps if you ever need to put only gasoline in the tank (cant find an E pump)
It future proofs your setup and gives you way more flexibility to anticipate changes.

I hit 370WHP with pump E... it contained 75% ethanol at the time of the tune. My goal was 375, not too shabby:

View attachment 137308

Since then, I've filled up a number of times with E stations around my area, and E content has moved from 60% to 80%. The car still performs like a crackhead drinking redbull, and has never once knocked at any load. I literally fill up at the pump, and mat the pedal. No worries with the E sensor and a good tune to accompany it.
Well thats good, what do I need to buy for the sensor and more importantly how do I install it? Also where do I get a fuel tester? Ethanol S has a rating of 117 octane. If you think I can get away with pump ide prefer to not jave to retune if I dont have too ya know. 350 is a great start but i dont know what other options I have at this point. I do have a p28 s300 v3 so im prepsred in that department. The car is not a daily or anything like that. Its a summer car, going to be driving inly in the summer/fall.
 

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I honestly think you'll be fine with pump E and going with a FF sensor.

Here's the sensor:



Here's the connector/pin kit:



It's a "build your own" pigtail kit. Just add your own wires, and crimp/solder to the terminals and install them into the connector plastic body. Then run enough wire to reach a switched 12V power source, ECU sensor ground, and feed the sensor signal wire to the ECU/S300 per hondata's instructions.

Here's a snippet of the SManager guide going over the FF sensor install particulars. Read from the heading "Digital (s300 v3 only)" and further down. This describes how to use the V3 digital inputs for the FF sensor:



The sensor will be installed in between the fuel return line (rubber hose) between your fuel pressure regulator at your fuel rail, and the hard steel line back to your fuel tank. I didn't use any special clips to fasten the hose to the sensor, just slide the hose over the FF sensor ports and clamp down with normal hose clamps, and route your wiring through the engine bay appropriately (good idea to use some cheap wire flex conduit for this), like this:

Auto part Fuel line Pipe Engine Suspension


Having a flex fuel sensor wired in to provide E percentage feedback of what is actually in your tank is good piece of mind. You'll be fine for your power goal with 65-70% E. Most pumps, even in winter, should be around 70%

Without the sensor, you'll constantly be guessing as to the E percentage in the tank. Ideally you do want it to stay at least above 60-65%, and the sensor will allow you to watch this.

Then once you get it wired in, you can use an app on your phone like Tunerview or similar and view this parameter in real time as a gauge if you'd like:

Speedometer Auto part Gauge Measuring instrument Odometer


Your tuner will love you for getting an FF sensor on the car before a tune on E :)
 

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Pump E comes with a typical octane rating of 105, which assumes about 75% ethanol. That is plenty for what you're trying to achieve :)

Fuel Gas pump Gasoline Machine Filling station


You can buy E testers on eBay or Amazon, but here's a link to a good one that doesn't have a sticker or screen printed ink on the test tube that will probably wash off after testing E a few times:

 
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