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Discussion Starter #1
So I'm sure this has been covered before but I googled and couldn't find a thread anywhere really comparing the options. I have a crx that will hopefully be around 350hp on a t3/t4 50 trim around 25-30psi...

I have been trying to look into my options and plan A was to just run like 110 octane... But I have been looking into water/meth and it seems sweet. Alot of people have said though that there can be an uneven distribution of the water/meth to the cylinders...

so other people have suggested e85. I dont really know if there is much of it around here but I was curious what you guys though of e85 vs water meth vs just running higher octane fuel vs.. any other options.

sorry again if this has been covered. I couldn't find anything talking about all the options as a whole. Thanks.
 

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word, im in for soem info from people who have delt with them first hand!
 

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One of the biggest differences between the two is in the actual delivery. By that I mean, how you use it. E85 replaces gasoline in your tank and is your primary fuel source, so it gets used at idle, partial throttle, and WOT. Water/Meth injection is an auxiliary system, usually boost dependent, meaning that you will only use it during WOT or when you are in boost and need it. That is the main difference between the two.
E85 has less potential power by volume than gasoline, so you wind up using more E85 to make the same power. I don't remember exactly how much, and I'm sure it depends on the setup, but you could potentially be using ~20-35% MORE E85 to get the same mileage vs. gasoline.
Both have higher octane ratings than regular gasoline (E85 is 100-105 IIRC, and Water/Meth allows for +/- 25% increase in RON, depending on the mixture). E85 can be hard to find and has some special installation requirements, but then again, it's not super easy to just buy gallons of methanol either.
So basically, Water/Meth should be used if you need the octane boost/cooling effects for short time periods, and E85 should be used if you want high octane fuel all the time. Either way, you'll still have to tune to take the two into account. Simply using E85 won't give you more power, but if you tune on t, you will be able to up the boost/advance timing/up the CR to take advantage. Same goes for water/meth.
Hope this helps a little
 

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I would go E85. Alot of people i know run this shit down here in Brazil with their setups and it´s the shit. A con is that its hard to start your car on a cond morning. so you might need some starting fluid in the morning. Pro it is the fact that it help to keep combustion chanber/ exhaust etc. in lower temps, keeps your engine oil clean and engine internals clean ( it makes very little carbon build ). You need 35%- %40 more of it to run the same MPG as gasoline. Hope this helps
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I would go E85. Alot of people i know run this shit down here in Brazil with their setups and it´s the shit. A con is that its hard to start your car on a cond morning. so you might need some starting fluid in the morning. Pro it is the fact that it help to keep combustion chanber/ exhaust etc. in lower temps, keeps your engine oil clean and engine internals clean ( it makes very little carbon build ). You need 35%- %40 more of it to run the same MPG as gasoline. Hope this helps
It did. What all has to change to run E85 besides bigger injectors?
 

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wrong. fuel lines are fine. bigger injectors and a walbro 255 fuel pump that you prolly already planned on anyway. I ran e85 for 3 months and never once had a problem with my fuel lines.
 

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yeah but im sure for BIG hp on E85 bigger fuel lines are GONNA be needed, if it already takes 40% more fuel to make the same as gasoline. so seems to me like 300whp would be max on stock lines, just a guess...but u see what imsaying... only reason id switch over to e85 is for bigger hp over 93.
 

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I'm going to be running E85 in my del sol here shortly.

I ran it in my DSM and have converted about six other cars to E85.

As a general rule of thumb you need to increase the fuel delivery around 30%

You can make great power on E85 because you can run more ign.timing and decrease intake charge temps. Plus you will also notice ECT's will run cooler.

I would recommend a alcohol tester to keep an eye on your local station's E85 alcohol contents. I usually see anywhere from 85% to 82% at my local station.

As far as cold starts go, I have not had one issue with it. The coldest temps were around 40*F and the car started and ran like normal.

The price is a bonus also. I spend anywhere from $2.19 to $2.35 a gallon.
 

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the e85 dispute.... i love the idea of running it except if i roadtrip and cant find a station with e85 what then?
On my DSM I just ran an E85 fuel map and a gasoline fuel map. I would run the E85 tank down to nothing then fire up my laptop and make the switch to the gasoline map.(93 talon flex fuel mobile)

It only took about 5 seconds to up load, but if you forgot your laptop you were SOL. ;)
 

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^good idea...
I was wondering what they do with the newer rides, cuz my rent's had a yukon that was e85 compatible...they never used it, but it was there...
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Good info everybody, keep it comin. Is there a write up on here as to which parts to purchase to go to e85. Around how much does it cost for the fuel lines?
I was planning on getting a bigger pump anyway and already have 1000cc injectors.

also, whats iirc?

edit: oh ya.. and 12ozwrecker, I went over this in school but cant remember for sure. I'm pretty sure it just has a sensor that senses the alcohol content. Don't quote me on that though.
 

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lol...i figured as much....
 

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Heres some good info from englishracing.com

So why is E85 the fuel of the future?
Some of the things that we are questioned frequently is what are the real advantages to E85? How do I tune for E85? Can I go back to gasoline? What do I need to convert?

In this article I am going to explain the benefits and problems with E85. One thing that E85 allows us to do is run racegas levels of boost and timing without having to pay the price of racegas. E85 is of course 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. This can vary based on the blender of the fuel and the company that is ordering. As a result the rated octane at the pump is listed at 105. The interesting thing about this is this is not the normal rating system we are used to, such as 92 or 93 octane.

Those numbers are found by using the R+M/2 method. The R stands for Research octane which is the maximum rating that a fuel was found to be. The M is Motor octane which is the minimum that a given fuel will be.

To understand this more fully follow this link:

Octane rating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Another interesting read on the exact octane of E85 can be found here:

http://forums.evolutionm.net/alternative-fuel/385257-octane-rating-e-70-...

Notice posts 7 & 8 in particular.

E85 on a stock Evo VIII or IX can allow you to run upwards of 34-35psi and generally make 400whp+ (on a stock turbo) depending on the level of modifications. We have experimented in other vehicles as well and to try to see the limits of what is possible. Our customer and good friend, Jeff Bush, runs E85-E98 in his racecar and has made 820whp at 37psi and run as much as 47psi at the track.

E85 burns cooler and cleaner, leaves no soot on the bumper, and is generally inexpensive and always less than the equivalent race fuel would be. It is unleaded fuel so it wont contaminate catalytic converters or O2 sensors like leaded race fuels. It will actually also offer evaporitive cooling similar to methonal injection, though not quite as effective.

Some things to keep in mind if you are building an engine and want to build it specifically for E85 is it does like a little higher compression (10:1) than a gasoline motor. If you are going to remain dual fuel, then no more than 9.5:1 is what we typically recommend though we have run 10:1 motors on 92 octane and 22psi.

Now for the drawbacks (but there is a silver lining):

It can be hard to start when the temp drops below 40*F, but being users of E85 this is something that is a priority for us at EnglishRacing. We are constantly looking for starting solutions on the stock ECU. Another problem is the increased fuel consumption, which is about the 30% more that E85 needs to maintain the same level of AFR's. I personally average about 19-20 on the highway on E85 and 25-26mpg on 92. What does it take?

To convert to E85 from gasoline there are a few things that you will need to do make the switch. One is of course an upgraded fuel pump and the Walbro 255lph works really well. 1000cc injectors on the stock turbo are about the minimum, and larger turbos require even more injector. Generally we rate the overall whp goal relative to the amount of injector and fuel pump.

For instance:

460whp is about the limit of 1000s and a single 255

480whp is about the limit of 1200s and a single 255

Above this point a second pump starts to become needed. There are a few options on the market and some of them are intank and then there are inline pump options. The main reason we suggest an inline is the intank designs require an additional fuel filter because they delete it in the intank setups. This is another thing to think about is that the E85 is not corrosive but it will loosen up the deposits in the tank and potentially clog the filter. It is a good idea to replace the filter after running the E85 for awhile anyway, but of course another option is to add another filter somewhere in the system.

520whp or so is the limit of 1200s and dual pumps.

If you are running on the Stock ECU in the case of the Evo (or DSMlink for the 1G/2G) the largest injectors you can still run gasoline are around the 1450 level. These are new from FIC and havent been widely publicized but they will flow enough fuel to push the car to the mid 500s. Above this 1600s become needed and there is very little way to make the car run on pumpgas on the stock ECU.

On the cars with DSMlink you might be able to push it a little but it still doesnt seem to work too well. On paper the 1450s and dual pumps should support around 750hp to the crank. Testing will show :) As you have seen E85 is not a perfect fuel, but it is very hard to beat.
 

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E85 is plentiful here (SC), and I already have the 1000cc injectors. I went back and further on whether to use it or not...but it came down to my tuner has not done an E85 tune yet and I just didn't want to be the guinea pig. LOL Maybe down the road though!
 

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If I were to run e85, i'd probably also use the 2-timer offered by moates.net. it allows you to switch between 2 different eproms. I also think the moates.net demon allows for mulitple tunes to also be stored on it, this coupled with the ex remote switch (if compatible) would allow to switch programs for different fuels without a laptop.

anyways, when tuning with e85 is stoich still considered 14.7? or is this value also changed due to the alcohol content?

What if instead of running larger injectors, is it possble to run water/meth and e85 in order to gain high hp? or would the chemical reaction between the 2 cause some problems?
 
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