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Discussion Starter · #101 ·
Well it took a while and the valves are replaced and the cars running again. Yet it does the same thing. Still smoking after decel at high rpm. At this point I'm out of ideas as to what it could be. Does the hone pattern still need to wear in more? Im clueless
 

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Any work done to the valve seats this time? Did he check valve spring pressure to make sure nothing was too soft? Were the guides snug on the valve stem bodies? Are the valve stem seals OEM brown and blue's? Some companies use the same stem seals for exhaust and intake, yet they are indeed different sizes.


At this point, just see about getting a detailed report of what was done, and any measurements.

Also worth putting around half an oil changes' worth of travel distance on it, and checking back. Make sure the cooling system is getting up to proper temps. Do not trust the gauges. Go by checking the radiator core near the upper hose, upper hose housing, and the thermostat housing. Make sure the car is getting past 190*F and staying there.
 

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Discussion Starter · #103 · (Edited)
Any work done to the valve seats this time? Did he check valve spring pressure to make sure nothing was too soft? Were the guides snug on the valve stem bodies? Are the valve stem seals OEM brown and blue's? Some companies use the same stem seals for exhaust and intake, yet they are indeed different sizes.


At this point, just see about getting a detailed report of what was done, and any measurements.

Also worth putting around half an oil changes' worth of travel distance on it, and checking back. Make sure the cooling system is getting up to proper temps. Do not trust the gauges. Go by checking the radiator core near the upper hose, upper hose housing, and the thermostat housing. Make sure the car is getting past 190*F and staying there.
Valve seats seal perfectly. He checked everything over and that was good. Valve stem seals are Skunk2 Viton seals. Couldnt mess anything up as theyre all the same size. Dunno how that works. New valve guides are nice and within tolerances.

At this point I think its an improper break in and its blowing past the rings or something. Got around 3000km on it with over 20 dyno runs after 300km. Did use 10w40 semi synthetic but went back to 5w30 semi for now. Oil pressure is looking better (not as high, maybe 0.3 bar less)

EDIT: At this point I'd like to mention another thing that I noticed. I'm just throwing wild guesses at this point but in the head theres always pretty filled up pool of oil near the VTEC solenoid area. Its like really pooled in there. Could that be an issue?
 

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At this point I'd like to mention another thing that I noticed. I'm just throwing wild guesses at this point but in the head theres always pretty filled up pool of oil near the VTEC solenoid area. Its like really pooled in there. Could that be an issue?
Like, under the valve cover by the solenoid? That's normal lol.

Have you tried isolating PCV from vacuum, just to test? Just clamp off vac hose with vice grips or hose clamp pliars, and test drive. By doing this, you prevent any kind of oil anything from being sucked into the intake via this vacuum.

Also, and I know I've said this before, but do a leakdown test to see and listen for abnormal amounts of air finding its way into the crankcase.

You've focused a ton on valvetrain, and had guides replaced, and multiple places say guides/seals should be fine. You should shift gears for a bit and do more diag on other places oil can leak into combustion chambers while running.

Also, are you sure of the following things:
  • Rings gapped and clocked correctly
    • I know you told me this is good previously, but this is important lol
  • Rings oriented correctly
    • Certain rings DO have a top/bottom facing orientation.
    • You MUST look out for any orientation markings, or features that indicate you need to pay attention to orientation (dots, bevel positions, angles, etc.)
    • Some aftermarket rings dont have dots to mark up or down, and rely on experienced builders to take note of any inner and/or outer bevels
    • If top ring is upside down, you'll push oil up into the combustion chamber instead of scraping it down.
Food for thought!

Fun experiment from hastings illustrating ring orientation:


“To illustrate what can happen with just one ring installed upside down Hastings installed a new V-6 engine on a dynamometer in our engine test laboratory and ran the engine for 80 hours with all rings installed correctly

The engine’s oil economy was 8076 miles per quart (M.P.Q.).

The engine’s oil pan, one head, and one piston were removed and the second compression ring was turned over so the dot was facing the bottom of the piston. Figure 2 illustrates the incorrect position of the ring.

The engine was re-assembled and ran again for 80 hours on the same schedule as the prior test. This time the oil economy was 3802 M.P.Q.”
 

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Discussion Starter · #105 ·
Like, under the valve cover by the solenoid? That's normal lol.

Have you tried isolating PCV from vacuum, just to test? Just clamp off vac hose with vice grips or hose clamp pliars, and test drive. By doing this, you prevent any kind of oil anything from being sucked into the intake via this vacuum.

Also, and I know I've said this before, but do a leakdown test to see and listen for abnormal amounts of air finding its way into the crankcase.

You've focused a ton on valvetrain, and had guides replaced, and multiple places say guides/seals should be fine. You should shift gears for a bit and do more diag on other places oil can leak into combustion chambers while running.

Also, are you sure of the following things:
  • Rings gapped and clocked correctly
    • I know you told me this is good previously, but this is important lol
  • Rings oriented correctly
    • Certain rings DO have a top/bottom facing orientation.
    • You MUST look out for any orientation markings, or features that indicate you need to pay attention to orientation (dots, bevel positions, angles, etc.)
    • Some aftermarket rings dont have dots to mark up or down, and rely on experienced builders to take note of any inner and/or outer bevels
    • If top ring is upside down, you'll push oil up into the combustion chamber instead of scraping it down.
Food for thought!
I have both the valve cover and block hole routed to a catch can and from there to my intake pipe. Nothing connected to the intake mani. I looped the 2 vacuum hoses together.

I did clock the rings according to Honda's specs. Even my dad said just do it in a Mercedes star and its fine, but I followed Honda's instructions down to a T.

I triple checked the ring orientations. DNJ has a sheet that you get with the rings to tell you how they should go.

So do a leakdown test again? Previous numbers where all below 10% though. Ill try it.

Again it doesnt do it cold. Only when oil gets up to temp and only when either blipping the throttle at high rpm idle or after decellerating at high rpm. If I go from 5th to 2nd and engine brake from eg 6500rpm to 4000rpm and floor it, it leaves a cloud of smoke. If I keep flooring it till 4th or 5th again without stopping the smoke dissapears after a short while from what I could tell... Ill see if I can make a video whilst driving. Need to find a phone mount lol
 

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You mentioned the skunk2 stem seals being the same size. This is something to check. The factory valve sizes are not the same STEM/body thickness. Unless your new valves share the same size (VERY possible with aftermarket, the OEM difference is so small), it is likely nothing to worry about.

In my eyes, if it does NOT do it cold, but does it as the engine warms up, I would THINK the bottom end is free and clear of issues.

It is normal to use a little oil, so perhaps measuring it is a better start. Oil catch can, run it from the valvecover nipple to plenum vacuum, no venting. Make engine vacuum suck up vapors. If hardly anything goes into the catch can, maybe the car is running rich?
 

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Discussion Starter · #107 ·
You mentioned the skunk2 stem seals being the same size. This is something to check. The factory valve sizes are not the same STEM/body thickness. Unless your new valves share the same size (VERY possible with aftermarket, the OEM difference is so small), it is likely nothing to worry about.

In my eyes, if it does NOT do it cold, but does it as the engine warms up, I would THINK the bottom end is free and clear of issues.

It is normal to use a little oil, so perhaps measuring it is a better start. Oil catch can, run it from the valvecover nipple to plenum vacuum, no venting. Make engine vacuum suck up vapors. If hardly anything goes into the catch can, maybe the car is running rich?
Stem diameter is a very tiny amount different. Exhaust is 5.46mm and intake is 5.48mm.

With the catch can setup that you mentioned, I should instead of routing it to the intake pipe just route it straight to the intake manifold?

At this point im also considering toding a Warped Perception style thing and put a small camera inside the manifold pointed at the valves of each cylinder and run the car to see if any oil still manages to seep past
 

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I have both the valve cover and block hole routed to a catch can and from there to my intake pipe. Nothing connected to the intake mani. I looped the 2 vacuum hoses together. Good. Unlikely an issue, but maybe remove from intake pipe entirely, just to verify?

I did clock the rings according to Honda's specs. Even my dad said just do it in a Mercedes star and its fine, but I followed Honda's instructions down to a T. Excellent.

I triple checked the ring orientations. DNJ has a sheet that you get with the rings to tell you how they should go. Good deal, good on ya for reading instructions lol.

So do a leakdown test again? Previous numbers where all below 10% though. Ill try it. Scratch this if you've already done it, and didnt notice/hear a ton of air escaping into crankcase (you put your ear and cheek over the oil cap opening to sense.)
Putting on my "edge case" hat.

How are your brake hydraulics? Master cylinder condition? Brake fluid level ok?

One really pain in the ass issue I ran into one time was a brake booster that had filled up with brake fluid due to master cylinder piston seal leaking.

On decel, the engine would suck brake fluid from the booster vac line into the engine, causing blue smoke on lift off.
 

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Discussion Starter · #109 · (Edited)
Putting on my "edge case" hat.

How are your brake hydraulics? Master cylinder condition? Brake fluid level ok?

One really pain in the ass issue I ran into one time was a brake booster that had filled up with brake fluid due to master cylinder piston seal leaking.

On decel, the engine would suck brake fluid from the booster vac line into the engine, causing blue smoke on lift off.
Brake fluid is good and on the coreect level. Ill take the hose to the intake off and check if its wet with fluid.

Does remind me that bleeding my brakes is a bitch on this car. Pedal feels mushy the first 150km after bleeding them and gets better over time

Edit: hang on. I remember seeing some yellowish staining in my intake. Could be normal but havent seen that before

All the runners had this. Just noticed that

Edit 2: tested it with the booster disconnected from the manifold. Made no difference
 

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Discussion Starter · #111 · (Edited)
What fuel are you running? Are you running any kind of octane booster if you're on pump fuel?

Octane booster will turn spark plugs, valves and ports yellow/orange.
Standard Euro 98 E5. So thats like 93 or 94 octane in the US I believe. E5 means 5% ethanol. AFR seems good, around 14:1

Edit: 14:1 cruising. 11-12.5:1 WOT

Went to the trusted shop guy and on my way there theres a huge decline. I had it in 5th and no throttle and my afr gauge started reading 13:1, I gave it some gas and holy smokeshow. I believe its pulling enough oil in to make the afr gauge give a reading. When I got to the shop he told me to keep an eye on the oil level to see how much it burns. He also suggested a less restrictive airfilter as I mentioned that I think the car has too much vacuum. I did a small test run with the intake pipe disconnected from the filter. On shorter vacuum periods ( high rpm no throttle) it seems to have gotten somewhat less but on longer periods its still there.

I also remember when I had the first start after the build that my dad adjusted the throttle plate screw so it was fully closed. I dont know much about the throttle and IACV and I wont claim any opinions as false, but shouldnt the plate be sliiiiightly open?
 

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Discussion Starter · #113 ·
Another update. I rechecked and redid my closed TB stop, it was waaay out of spec. Throttle was fully closed to the point that the metal around the spring was digging into the aluminum. I've adjusted it and the idle is unchanged with a lower vacuum of 19inHg instead of 23inHg. Revving it in idle resulted in a vacuum of 24inHg instead of 26inHg when the revs were coming down.

Now this is still with the stock airbox and upgraded airfilter (Pipercross filter) and during driving the smoking doesn't start till 4k + rpm decel instead of 3200rpm decel.
I might be onto something here. Now my intake isnt really hooked into anything that uses the vacuum other than the brake booster (PCV isnt connected anymore). I believe that at the higher rpm - especially when the car is moving - the vacuum goes 30inHg+. I'm going to test that sometime this weekend (thanks school roster).
I'll swap out the mat filter for a cone filter for more airflow to the engine, maybe itll breathe easier aswell. Other than that the other thing I could think of to reduce high rpm vacuum would be some sort of bleed off valve that removes any excess vacuum after say 26-27inHg.
Not sure though. Still researching
 

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Then hook the pcv valve up to the catch can and the breather line to the intake tube, and see what happens. the pcv valve is a vacuum bleed, and it actually closes if vacuum gets too high, so that full closed throttle plate may well have been keeping the pvc valve in the closed position except on accel, where it wasn't smoking.
 

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Discussion Starter · #115 ·
Then hook the pcv valve up to the catch can and the breather line to the intake tube, and see what happens. the pcv valve is a vacuum bleed, and it actually closes if vacuum gets too high, so that full closed throttle plate may well have been keeping the pvc valve in the closed position except on accel, where it wasn't smoking.
That could be the issue yeah. Now this could be an early morning brain malfunction on my end but hooking the pcv valve to the catch can and breather line wouldnt change anything right? The current setup is block vent to catch can and valve cover to catch can. The 3rd line goes from catch can to the intake piping. So the 2 intake vacuum ports on the top loop into themselves. The intake tube wouldnt be under any vacuum correct? So the pcv valve wouldnt really do anything
 

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I'd try block vent to catch can, vc to air intake (with the stock heated metal line preferably, it serves as a draft tube to create vacuum as air flows past the angled hole and into the tb) and pcv valve to one of the top ports of the catch can, with the rest plugged. This should essentially function like the stock setup on steroids, with the catch can acting as the factory black breather box, and hopefully separating more of the oil vapor from the air being pulled into the engine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #117 ·
I'd try block vent to catch can, vc to air intake (with the stock heated metal line preferably, it serves as a draft tube to create vacuum as air flows past the angled hole and into the tb) and pcv valve to one of the top ports of the catch can, with the rest plugged. This should essentially function like the stock setup on steroids, with the catch can acting as the factory black breather box, and hopefully separating more of the oil vapor from the air being pulled into the engine.
Ill try that. The metal line probably wont work since the intake tubing has a different mount for the line. Basically a barb fitting. So I should use the pcv valve on one of the exit points of the catch can or the entry points?

Ill post a pic of the current setup later. Visualizing it makes it easier for me
 

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Exit point of can for pcv, that alone likely helps, if it dosent solve it entirely modify the aftermarket intake tube with a step bit and find a pcv breather grommet to use the stock metal line. Beyond that you would probably need to add a few more holes to the baffle in the vc, run that to catch can in along with block vent, then use one of the 3 way type valves found on some of the newer cars for the vent to intake and pcv at the catch can out, basically those switch between vent and vacuum based on whichever is flowing more rather than how much vacuum there is.
 

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Is there any reason the honda OEM setup cannot be used?

Vacuum to the crankcase will help power and fuel economy. Use a sealed catch can between the valvecover and intake arm. Leave the rest factory. Make sure your valvecover's oil baffles inside are not clogged up, hell, add some holes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #120 ·
Is there any reason the honda OEM setup cannot be used?

Vacuum to the crankcase will help power and fuel economy. Use a sealed catch can between the valvecover and intake arm. Leave the rest factory. Make sure your valvecover's oil baffles inside are not clogged up, hell, add some holes.
I ditched the original setup since I thought it wasnt enough venting and giving me 'pressure' inside the crankcase. I completely removed the oil baffle in the valve cover
 
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