Honda D Series Forum banner

1 - 8 of 8 Posts

·
Registered
Del Sol
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hello and greetings from germany,

i got an del sol with an d16y8 engine on it, now i have some problems

i already did an tune up and replaced some parts

timing belt
spark plugs
spark plug wires
dizzy cap
fuel filter
oil change + oil filter
pcv valve
vtec solenoid gasket
valve cover gasket
valve adjustment
all ground connections with new cables
air filter

soo, now it runs fine, no oil loss/consumption..

The car hesitates in low rpm, affter about 3k rpm it seems to be fine, it idles at 800 rpm and goes all the way to redline, but when i let of the gas pedal and accelerate again, it jerks a little bit, and thats not the real problem. So if i accelerate i have an hesitation about 2k rpm and about 2700rpm again, it goes like this - accelerating, hesitate 2 seconds, accelerate again, hesitate 2 seconds and then without any problems above 3k rpm it accelerate to redline.

The car also stalled out one time while i was idling, and i need to play with the gas to drive in reverse that the car doesn't stall out.

I have no CEL, the connections on the Vtec solenoid are oily and i will clean them tomorrow, but that doesn't effect my symptoms at all..

I lost the spring for the ignition coil and put an spring from a pen on it, because i the coil is expensive here in germany, and i don't even know if this is the problem. I did the timing belt change, because it jumped one tooth, i couldn't get the ignition timing correct and now everything ist good. checked it twice and the timing is correct! (ignition and mechanical!!) it also goes better than before, way better cause it jumped an tooth to retarded, but it the hesitation, stalling (just one time), "longer start" and the jerking when accelerating again sucks.

I guess it's something with the ignition.. maybe Ignition Coil or ICM? or really the Spring? but before i lost it, (also before timing belt change) the problem was there. Maybe Map Sensor or the TPS? Clogged Cat? bad o2 sensor? what could it be?

No cylinder is misfiring, i disconnected spark plug wires from each cyl and it dropped the same amount on every cyl, and inj. seems to be fine to, it would be something that affects "all cylinders" i guess..

I am sorry for my bad english, and i hope you guys understand everything :D

thanks for helping
 

·
Registered
93 Civic HB SI
Joined
·
770 Posts
Hi there, you said you did a tune up and "now" you have problems? Did you have these issues before the tune up?

If not, it's definitely something that changed after you performed your tune up. It sounds like a low RPM misfire from the way you describe it. Low RPM with medium-to-high load engine demands are a common place for ignition misfires to show themselves.

It seems you had some issues getting timing-belt timing to hold, jumping teeth and so on. When you said you had to keep the engine running with the accelerator pedal at idle and reverse, this could be due to incorrect cam/crank timing. Make sure your mechanical timing is CORRECT and SECURE before attempting to diagnose electrically related causes of misfire!

Once verified, set distributor timing with timing light to crank pulley indicator per the OEM service manual for your vehicle/country.

You said you changed the distributor cap, did you change the rotor as well? Those are usually replaced in pairs to get them back to new condition and clearances as well. The new rotor and cap are usually designed to "touch" each other for the first few revolutions to scrape off any coatings that are applied to protect the metal terminals, so if you only replaced the cap it may not have scraped the coating off the distributor cap terminals and could cause conductivity issues. Use a piece of sandpaper or emery cloth and rough up the cap terminals underneath a little bit if you didn't change the rotor.

You mentioned you lost the spring that goes between the coil and the distributor? One thing you need to watch with replacing that spring with any random material is the replacement spring's material makeup. The original coil spring is made from a specific material for good high voltage conductivity and operation.

Most ink pen springs are chrome plated and are made of questionably conductive material, so if you really cannot find a better material make sure you use a piece of fine grit sand paper or emery cloth and clean the chrome plating down at the ends of the spring that make contact with the coil and the distributor cap terminal.

Also make sure there is really good spring pressure force between the coil and distributor cap.

A quick/cheap way to replace that spring without buying a coil/distributor is if you are around any junk/salvage yards, look for any engines that run coil-on-plug ignition coils and remove a coil. Pull the long boot tube off and remove the spring. They have long springs in them and are made of the correct material for ignition operation. You can cut/bend/shape as needed to build a new spring for your coil.

Hope this helps!
 

·
Registered
Del Sol
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for your help.

No, i did have the Problems before the tune-up and i thought they will go away after the tune-up, i hoped so.. But these Problems are still there.

Today i checked all vacuum lines, and they are all good, but my ignition timing went a little more to retard, so i adjusted it to the red mark like the manual says, and since then the car runs better, but i think i lost some more low rpm power, on high rpms the car runs perfect with just 125hp.

The timing belt was jumped an tooth before i did the timing belt change (I checked my ign. timing and wanted to adjust it right, and couldn't get it on the marks, so i checked the marks and saw that it was one tooth off), i did the change because of this. I didn't know how old the belt was, and I thought "one tooth off, i could slip it off and put in on in the right position, but i rather spent 30-40 bucks on it and change the belt", since then, i haven't had any problems, the marks and all lines up, i get my ign timing right, and so on.. So I guess it has nothing to do with this. It also runs much better. But I can also let and friend who is an car mechanic watch it over.

I didn't change the rotor, because it seemed to be really in a good shape, like "new" the parts in the dizzy itself are looking really good. I had the cap off today too, and the "pen spring" wasn't there anymore, it went to dust, i think it wasn't long enough and went out and then yeah... so I did an new pen spring on it. But I have roughed up the terminals, because there were something "white" on it? Is this normal? When i replaced the spring today, they where white again..

Yeah I thought that the OEM spring have an different material than the pen spring, I haven't cleaned the chrome plating on the new one, but i will do it tomorrow. Until I have an new spring. The pen spring is just as long as the oem spring, so i guess thats okay.

Good to know, Monday I will check my local junkyard, but in Germany they are pretty "expensive", maybe it's cheaper to buy an cheap aftermarket coil for about 12 bucks and just use the spring from it?

But I don't know, the idle still drops sometimes and it's rough to drive it in reverse, so you think it will pretty much be an ign. issue? Cat clogged, o2 sensor, Map/Tps or something is not the problem?

Thanks a lot!
 

·
Registered
93 Civic HB SI
Joined
·
770 Posts
Ok, that's important to know these issues were there before the tune up.

Since it is a Del Sol, it should be 96+ model years so the ignition timing procedure is as follows for that car. Most people forget to short the SCS service connector when moving the distributor to adjust ignition timing.

1. Start the engine, and check idle speed. Make sure it is between 650-700 RPM with your foot OFF THE PEDAL. What to do if it isn't:

1a. If idle isn't within spec or it's not holding properly, and you verified that there is NO CEL on (this is to make sure the IAC is most likely working), you can manually adjust the base idle speed at the throttle body using the metered air adjustment screw. See the picture attached to know where this screw is. Tighten in (clockwise) to limit airflow, and loosen (counterclockwise) to add air flow past the throttle body. You should be able to use this screw to regain correct base idle speed.

1b. If messing with this screw does NOT allow you to regain proper idle speed, suspect an issue with, possibly both, the Idle Air Control (IAC) valve or the Fast Idle Thermo Valve (FITV) if equipped. Attempt to set idle with the IAC unplugged so the ECM cannot control this device. Unplugging this will set a Check Engine light, and the ECM may limit RPM and/or cause a surge when attempting to move the throttle plate. Dirty throttle body, carbon plugged IAC ports, carbon plugged FITV ports and/or malfunctioning IAC can cause idle not to keep properly. If your throttle body is very dirty with carbon build up, consider removing it to clean it well as well as the IAC, FITV and their ports.

2. Once idle is established, warm up the engine with the transmission in neutral. Wait for the engine to get to operating temperature and let the cooling fan cycle ON at least once. This verifies operating temp has been reached.

3. Under the dash (locations can change based on model/geographical location), locate the 2 Pin SCS service connector. This connector should have brown and black wires going to it, and should either be hanging by itself or plugged into a dummy connector. Once located, turn the ignition key OFF. Use a jumper wire or a paperclip to short the two connector terminals together (effectively connecting the brown and black wires).

4. Start the engine, and allow the engine to idle. The CEL will be on, and may blink. At this time with the engine idling, go out under the hood and verify your ignition timing. Connect the inductive pickup of a timing light to plug wire #1 (closest to the timing belt) and turn it on.

5. Point the light down at the crankshaft pulley and verify your timing marks. The stationary pointer should line up with the RED mark (the center mark in the middle of the 3 marks) on the crankshaft pulley. If it lines up, you are done.

6. If this mark does not line up, loosen the distributor hold down bolts just slightly and turn the distributor either way to allow for the marks to line up.


It may be possible (though it is rare on these engines, usually you can see this visually) that the rubber that isolates the inner to outer crankshaft pulley/harmonic balancer segments has broken down and the outer ring has slipped. This will throw off your timing adjustment because the marks will be in the wrong area. These marks are set at the harmonic balancer manufacturer in reference to the keyway slot.

Setting ignition timing by ear may be something you might want to try here. When the engine is at operating temp and at idle, disconnect the IAC and move the distributor around to see where the engine "likes" the distributor position. If the engine was running rough or about to die before, and rotating it to a new position makes it wake up and run better in a different spot, you may want to lock the distributor in that position, plug the IAC back in and go for a drive and see what happens.

If this is the case and the engine runs better and holds idle better, chances are that mechanical timing (cam/crank/timing belt alignment) is off still or the harmonic balancer outer ring has slipped and showing you a false 12 degree (red mark) position.


The other things you mentioned (cat clogged, O2 sensor, MAP/TPS, etc.) are pretty easy to verify. The Honda electronic engine feedback components from 92-95 are pretty much the same from 96-2001.

The only things that really changed from OBD1 to OBD2a was the addition of a crankshaft position sensor in some engines, a downstream O2 sensor for cat monitoring, better closed loop fuel trim control, O2 sensor heater monitoring, EGR system monitoring and EVAP monitoring with the stock narrowband upstream sensor.

Other than those things and the distributor connected to the wiring harness, a Honda in these year ranges should run with only the TPS OR the MAP sensor connected to the ECU. If you unplug literally every sensor on the engine except the distributor connectors, and plug back in the TPS, the engine will run. Cut it back off, unplug the TPS and plug in the MAP, start the car and it will run. Turn it back off and unplug BOTH, the car will sound like it is TRYING to start, but it will fail. So to check these items you mentioned, try these:

Cat clogged - Unbolt the exhaust manifold from the head, leaving one or two nuts still on the studs but just at the ends of the threads. Use mechanics wire or a bungie cord to pull the manifold away from the head. This should leave a 1/2" to a 3/4" gap between the manifold and the head. This gap is enough to "test drive" like this to see if the engine breathes better by bypassing the cat. If it gets better, replace the cat or any other points of exhaust restriction.

O2 Sensor - For your year range engine, the upstream/downstream sensors should not have much bearing on medium to heavy throttle "performance". Best thing to do to is to simply unplug both of them. The engine will only run on the preprogrammed open-loop fuel tables using the MAP and TPS, and not look to the oxygen sensors for any trimming. If your power comes back, you might be right that the sensor is lazy, etc.

MAP/TPS - With the distributor plugged in and all of its internal electronic components operating correctly, unplug the TPS. Go for a test drive. RPM may be limited, but it should allow you to investigate the return of low RPM power. If so, TPS could be bad. Then try and unplug MAP and reconnect TPS. Test drive. RPM will be limited here, but again it should allow power up to 3500-4000 RPM. You should be able to tell if low RPM power is restored. Consider unplugging the Intake Air Temperature (IAT) sensor while doing this test as well, as a malfunctioning IAT sensor can affect ECU controlled fuel delivery and ignition timing. Another thing to note about the IAT, is that if for some reason you swapped the IAT/IAC connectors by accident (you can do it depending on your wiring harness configuration), you can destroy the IAT sensor.

You also may want to check/adjust valve lash, if valves are too tight from not being adjusted in a while this can cause driveability performance issues, from rough idling to misfiring, etc.


Hope this helps.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Del Sol
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
In the Germany manual it says that the idle should be about 750 +/- 50 rpm, when I adjusted the ignition timing it was about 750 +/- 50 and service connector jumped, but i will do the full procedure to adjust the idle (like the manual says) again and than check the ign. timing again to be sure it's right.

I already cleaned the throttle body and IACV, the D16Y8 doesn't have an FITV.. the throttle body was really clean, not much to clean but the IACV was a little bit dirty.. but after reconnecting the IACV I didn't set the idle like the manual says, it was about on the right rpm range.. maybe this could be a Problem?

If service connector jumped, it doesn't blink, the MIL stays steady, even when checking for codes or something.

I didn't think that the harmonic outer ring or the key is bad and has slipped, I put an new key in it while doing the timing belt change, and was sure that everything sits good etc, the tdc (white mark) is also in the right position when I check for the TDC.. but i have to put my oil dipstick tube out and use an new gasket again, so I will check that again to be sure while I am doing the dipstick tube.

In Germany the law is really hard, so an "test drive" with exhaust manifold "off" or with an gap is not really possible. Is there an other way to test it?

I'll try to drive it with both oxygen sensors disconnected.. to be sure if it's the oxygen sensors or not..

I do have an multimeter, so i should be able to check the tps with it, right? about 0.5v closed throttle and 4.7 opened?

I don't think that I swapped the connectors for the IAT/IAC sensor's, but I will check them again..

The valve lash was adjusted, but if i find my feeler gauge again, i will do that again, i already wanted to do them again, because i did them before the timing belt change (when it was 1 tooth off), and maybe they are wrong again..

What also happend, but I think it's "gone" that my exhaust smoked black sometimes, and the spark plugs also told that the engine was running rich, I didn't have this anymore since I cleaned the wires and plugs from the oil (the plugs were not fully in the engine, so it allowed to escape oil and gas).

Should I do an ECU reset after the things I done? I didn't done it.

Thanks for your help!
 

·
Registered
Del Sol
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Don't know how to edit..

I did cleaned the spark plug wires and plugs because there was oil on it where they are connecting together.
 

·
Registered
Del Sol
Joined
·
5 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
UPDATE:

So the car is not hesitating anymore,mechanical timing is on point, TPS and MAP is fine, O2 sensor is fine, everything seems to be good.

After I cleaned the dizzycap from the white stuff and sandpapered the pen spring, i saw that the rotor was uhm... there was krusty black things on it, like "burned". sanded it down to test if it makes some different. And yeah now i know why people recommend to do the rotor with the dizzy. It's waaaaaaay better, guess i'll buy an new rotor.

BUT there still is a powerloss on the low rpm range, it's just like i have loaded 600kg more in it or something.. tomorrow i will check the ignition timing again. Maybe it's just me thinking that there is something wrong because the timing was way to retarded before, so this would increase the low rpm range, right?

i don't know, the heat shild from the cat also went bad, so guess i am gonna buy some new universal cat for 70-80 bucks and put it in.. i think after 20 years it's gonna be at least a bit clogged...

I did the Oil dipstick tube, but i think i lost some srping or something that will hold the tube? i am still able to move the tube around.. i don't know if its sealed.. i will drive few days and than watch if there is any leak around that tube..

My oil does also get mixed with gas.. i mostly just drive under 15miles, once a week about 200miles.. could it be from that?

I don't have any smoke, it was smoking black sometime, but now it seems to be fine, no blue, white, grey or whatever smoke, no waterloss, no oil in coolant or coolant in oil, but the oil also get low when i park it few days, but after i did the vtec solenoid and valve cover gaskets it isn't this much anymore. i also had a look for the oil filter, it's good. I think the main oil loss problem is now the dipstick tube, hope it worked now and doesn't leak anymore.. I first thought it is my oil pan, maybe it's the pan gasket too, i cleaned all and have a watch where the oil is coming out..

So guess my only problems now are
loss of power in low rpm range (maybe normal because i drove it with timing way to retarded)
Oil loss on dipstick tube / oilpan.

Tomorrow I will do the full procedure to adjust the idle like in the manual, and then i check the ignition timing again, maybe it's now a bit to advanced causing that the low rpms are not so "powerful" but the high rpms are? don't know..
 
1 - 8 of 8 Posts
Top