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The Wife and the Car
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Head rebuilt,
Adjustable cam gear identical to the one on the car. All the marks / key way line up so I used it.
Bisi Moto Cam
Stock valve clearances
Car starts on first crank and idles ok.
Crome Y8 Map with 16.00 Deg as base timing.

But when I shine my timing light I see the engine is firing at TDC
I tried to lock the distributor full to fire wall.
Still the same.

The only way I could get it to work was to load a P30 map and then go to tools / advanced tables and say add 12 deg at all RPM points. (Early value here was 0,0,2.5 ..)
I changed this to 12,12,14.5...

Where did things go wrong ?
 

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1992 Civic Si
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Are you jumping the diag connector when setting base timing?

Have you tried moving the cam gear? Quick easy way to see if it's off a couple teeth.
 

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same
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you have to add 9° to the maps.

this is why you see 21.5° in the stock maps and only 12.5° actual timing.

with base timing set to 16° you are only running 7° timing with the dizzy near the middle....
 

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The Wife and the Car
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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
service connector jumper ed or not doesn't effect it
I dont know if this helps but when I shine my timing light on the adjustable cam gear with the pick up on the cylinder 4 (furthermost from the pulley) the engine is firing with the up mark on the cam gear facing the ground i.e. opp. to the position we put the cam gear in to start adjusting the valve. i.e. its pointing down.

Why do you say I have to add 9 ? I landed up adding 12 with my distributor clocked to the wall. I dont think a tooth can = 12 Degrees. Though I will double check.
This is an odd problem to even search for.
 

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The Wife and the Car
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Discussion Starter #7
was up the whole night reading on PGMFI where I saw a post from acid beaver telling somebody with the same problem that his cam timing was off.

But here your saying we must add 9 deg.
So Im not sure. Do I re-degree the cam or just accept the fact that numbers need to be added to get the ignition to sync ?
 

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The Wife and the Car
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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Honda cam pulley is 38 tooth
360/38=9
So does this mean that you where somehow off by 1/2 tooth at the crank and 1 tooth at the distributor and I am some how off by 3/4 tooth at the crank and 1.5 tooth at the distributor.?
Funny thing the car starts idles and runs ok just a wee bit down on power in the lower RPMs but that I would put to the changed cam durations.
http://forum.pgmfi.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=21881&p=127363&hilit=timing+offset#p127363

BTW this is not a mini me. This motor was built like this by honda i.e. D15 Bottom end with y8 head. And factory idle is 16 Deg. BTDC.
 

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same
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alright a little backing up first.

first you have to realize when the y8 map says 21° the actual ignition is taking place at 12° because the groove in the cam is cut wrong for the dizzy or whatever. this is proven, no weird science or anything about it, honda engineers just fudged it up.

so you have 2 choices, use y8 maps and KNOW there is a 9° offset, or twist the dizzy towards the firewall until you get actual timing (you have to lock the timing in the maps to do this though, meaning set ALL the values to whatever base timing you're running unless the software has a "lock timing" button). if you get the actual ignition to match the table ignition then no offset in the maps.......

my cam timing was spot on, i could barely get 12° out the distributor adjustment so i doubt you'll get 16°...

if you cannot get atleast 10° at the crank you are without a doubt a tooth off. each tooth is approximately 9.5°, so if you had to add 12° in the maps to get to 16 at the crank i'd say you are without a doubt a tooth advanced on the cam.
 

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The Wife and the Car
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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
alright a little backing up first.

first you have to realize when the y8 map says 21° the actual ignition is taking place at 12° because the groove in the cam is cut wrong for the dizzy or whatever. this is proven, no weird science or anything about it, honda engineers just fudged it up.
So this makes sense then because 21-12= 9 or 9.5 like you said.
I am having to add 12 deg I guess I could drop it to 10-11 and the marks would line up better its hard to judge 2-3 degrees this way or that. So I am off by 12-9.5 = 2.5 Deg
That cant be a tooth more like the adjustable cam pulley is a weeeeeeeee bit not centered. Maybe I should just put my non adjustable cam pulley on (Which I dont want to do because we need to be able to adjust the cam for different tracks).



so you have 2 choices, use y8 maps and KNOW there is a 9° offset, or twist the dizzy towards the firewall until you get actual timing (you have to lock the timing in the maps to do this though, meaning set ALL the values to whatever base timing you're running unless the software has a "lock timing" button). if you get the actual ignition to match the table ignition then no offset in the maps.......

> For me what the map shows and what the engine runs has to match Im a bit anal about this. I am using a P30 base map. Not a Y8 map. The values for the Map are from a JDM D15 Vtec map which uses 16.5 at idle. This is a better base map for me than say a base map off a B16Y8 setup I think.
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You Said
my cam timing was spot on, i could barely get 12° out the distributor adjustment so i doubt you'll get 16°...

if you cannot get atleast 10° at the crank you are without a doubt a tooth off. each tooth is approximately 9.5°, so if you had to add 12° in the maps to get to 16 at the crank i'd say you are without a doubt a tooth advanced on the cam.

> How can I be one tooth off on the cam. ? That means I am 1/2 tooth off on the crank ? Im out by 12-9.5= 2.5 Degrees only.

So looks like I need to take the timing belt off. Then reinstall it. Making sure my timing marks line up and then I need to re-check the cam.

Im a little bit confused about the service jumper it seems to have little or no effect on my timing.

So in the P30 base I am using your saying I need to go in and just add 9.5 Deg everywhere then lock my dizzy to the fire wall and then check the timing I should see at least 10 Deg right ?
Ok will give that a shot first. I assume I leave the values at 16 deg for the map timing.

Ps: If it helps the orignal Cam Gear is marked P2J. The Adjustable Cam Gear is off a Y8 and the cam is also Y8. The head is Y8. The block is D15.
 

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ed7
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play with the cam gear a little ...

I have the same problem, if i move dizzy nothing happens....

When i installed SR909/Stg 2 cam...running z6 time maps car is d16a6 obd1 p06

When i move cam gear 5 advance my dizzy is in middle and 16 like it should be...

im running like this for 2-3 moths , never get a chance to check what was wrong ...
(incorrect cam gear, or d15b7 grind )
 

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The Wife and the Car
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Discussion Starter #12
Well we figured my adjustable cam gear was off by over 20 deg.
The reason being Cynide centered it. Which should have been right.
But when we lined up the orignal Y8 cam gear slot and marks we found that it was off by 20 Deg.
So now I have matched the lines / slot and teeth between the adjustable cam gear and the Y8.
Now with the cam gear moved 20 crank deg Im not even sure if it will start and the timing being off by 2.5 looks like a small problem compared to what is to come.
 

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So this makes sense then because 21-12= 9 or 9.5 like you said.
I am having to add 12 deg I guess I could drop it to 10-11 and the marks would line up better its hard to judge 2-3 degrees this way or that. So I am off by 12-9.5 = 2.5 Deg
That cant be a tooth more like the adjustable cam pulley is a weeeeeeeee bit not centered. Maybe I should just put my non adjustable cam pulley on (Which I dont want to do because we need to be able to adjust the cam for different tracks).

you are confusing ignition timing and mechanical timing. when MECHANICAL timing is correct ignition timing is on a 9° offset. you are adding 12° in the map so your 12° offset in IGNITION TIMING is probably the 9° from factory plus some from cam gear variations. however, you said after adding that 12° its still firing at TDC or 0° so you are off by the 12° ignition timing plus you'd need another 12-16° to get ignition timing at 12-16°, so you are off a tooth or 2 possibly.



so you have 2 choices, use y8 maps and KNOW there is a 9° offset, or twist the dizzy towards the firewall until you get actual timing (you have to lock the timing in the maps to do this though, meaning set ALL the values to whatever base timing you're running unless the software has a "lock timing" button). if you get the actual ignition to match the table ignition then no offset in the maps.......

> For me what the map shows and what the engine runs has to match Im a bit anal about this. I am using a P30 base map. Not a Y8 map. The values for the Map are from a JDM D15 Vtec map which uses 16.5 at idle. This is a better base map for me than say a base map off a B16Y8 setup I think.
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i'm anal about NO map offset aswell, but thats beside the point. if you are going to actually tune it then your basemap doesnt mater much, however you'll be ALOT closer if you start with a map that is for your HEAD. using a y8 high quench head you need much less timing, especially in the high cam and even more so near redline.

You Said
my cam timing was spot on, i could barely get 12° out the distributor adjustment so i doubt you'll get 16°...

if you cannot get atleast 10° at the crank you are without a doubt a tooth off. each tooth is approximately 9.5°, so if you had to add 12° in the maps to get to 16 at the crank i'd say you are without a doubt a tooth advanced on the cam.

> How can I be one tooth off on the cam. ? That means I am 1/2 tooth off on the crank ? Im out by 12-9.5= 2.5 Degrees only.

So looks like I need to take the timing belt off. Then reinstall it. Making sure my timing marks line up and then I need to re-check the cam.

Im a little bit confused about the service jumper it seems to have little or no effect on my timing.

the service jump connector simply prevents any ignition correction based on coolant temp and intake air temp, so if you are doing it with the engine warm and normal temperature outside the ecu isnt using the correction tables.

So in the P30 base I am using your saying I need to go in and just add 9.5 Deg everywhere then lock my dizzy to the fire wall and then check the timing I should see at least 10 Deg right ?
Ok will give that a shot first. I assume I leave the values at 16 deg for the map timing.

no the 9° offset is just to keep the dizzy in the middle, if you are advancing the dizzy then you should be able to get 16° or so without any offset in the map, meaning, if you lock timing at what you actually want in the map (i think you said 16°) you should be able to turn the distributor until you see the timing light hit the 16° mark on the crank pulley (although you might not have a 16° mark on your crank pulley).

Ps: If it helps the orignal Cam Gear is marked P2J. The Adjustable Cam Gear is off a Y8 and the cam is also Y8. The head is Y8. The block is D15.
 

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The Wife and the Car
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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Thanks for all the help dude.
THe funny thing is I do have a 16 Deg timing mark. From the factory the timing marks are
14,16,18 and we normally run 16 deg.
I am now running 16 deg in my D15-Vtec Map. And I have jumped back 2 teeth.
So in effect if I start the car and check now I should see 16 deg

If I do not that means all my seetings are getting thrown off by the timing belt tension process.
I spoke to a garage owner he told me the only way to get it right is to line up everything. Tension the tensioner and tighten down. And the only way to do this is to get the cover off so we can access the tensioner. Which is how I do it on the Suzuki's we build. I think everything went into a tail spin on this because I did not have clear access to the Tensioner.
Im going to give it one more try. If it doesnt work. I will take it to a garage and get them to pull the platic cover offf the side off the engine so I can tension the belt right.

Ps: Where did the number 21.5 come from ?
Stock timing in all the maps I have seen is either 14 or 16
My stock timing is supposed to be 16 as per the OBD2B ECU the car was running.
Anyway will check the timing now and revert.
Fun bit is we have rounded off the cam tension bolt. Can we change it / swap it arround without having to take the cover off ? I have my doubts.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Bingo I got it,
When you have your timing perfect Crome says you are running 21.5
Thanks for all the help guys I got it sorted. Now with the distributor locked to the wall I enter 16 in the map and I get 16 at the distributor.
Crome off course reports 21 but thats cool. As long as the values I enter is the value it runs Im happy.

Lesson learned.
You have to pull the timing cover to get proper access to the tensioner.
If you try to follow the service manual you will be chasing your tail.
With the cover off its so easy. Dial in the cam. Put on belt. Tension by hand and your set.
I will get the tension bolt which rounded off replaced after I finish the tune.
For now I will focus on the tune.

Special thanks to Cynide for being there and helping with most of the wrenching.
 
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