Honda D Series Forum banner

1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,120 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hoping someone could share some insight on how to alter this region productively when using Neptune RTP.

The Help file is severely lacking in my opinion, and raises many questions, including the attitude of the author.

Anyway..

I've attached a JPG with the window in question.

"Ignition Dwell settings are for advanced users only. (Which are defined as) Please do not play with these settings if you don't understand what they're for. What use was this sentence, why not use this space to explain what it does.

The RPM Based Ignition Adjustments are adjustments applied to the ignition value based on RPM. At those RPM, those values are added to table ignition time + corrections.

Actual ignition = Table + ECT/IAT/TPS + Dwell + ????

Right?

RPM Based Dwell Control allows you to adjust the charge time of the coil by altering the cam angle at which the charge starts.

So at these RPM, the coil starts charging this many degrees before discharge event?

Battery Voltage Based Dwell Multiplier is the value based on battery voltage that is multiplied by the cam angle from the RPM Based Dwell Control to product the final dwell values.

This number is multiplied by the degrees of angle above to start the charging the coil? This definition slightly hinges on the one above. And I believe is incorrect

So at 2000 RPM at 12.5V = 20x25 = 500 degrees of charge advance? Doesn't make sense.

I need a way to alter the charge time of my coilpacks in a sensible manner.

Also curious if the RPM based ignition adjustments are still needed when using the CKF as the CKP



Last few attempts to converse with James have been rather unhelpful with his personality getting in the way of constructive understanding, or possibly improving the software, which could use improving.

I'm about to switch over to a standalone or Hondata for a more straight forward approach that supports COP, trigger wheels as well as better documentation. I don't recommend his product to others as a result of the various issues, although it works alright. I even tried the Demon 2 and RD1..

Hoping some of you folks could explain in better detail how you understand it.
 

Attachments

·
the artist formerly known as drexelstudent11
Joined
·
3,983 Posts
AutoSpeed - Ignition coil dwell time
Ignition Coil Dwell Calibration

covers it in some detail, how you'd find optimal dwell times for new coils

keep in mind, the most the dwell there could ever possibly be on a single coil 4 cyl is 90 degrees of the cam position sensor, so I have to think those values are additive not multiplicative

and yes, when using a single coil, you will still need that rpm based ignition advance - that's there because the charge time of the coil is essentially fixed, but the window to charge up the coil goes down as RPM goes up

i.e. at 1000 rpms, it's firing 2000 times/minute, 33.333 times/second, or every 30 milliseconds
at 8000 rpms, it's firing 16000 times/minute, 266.66 times/second, or every 3.75 milliseconds.

with a COP setup, you get to divide that by four since each coil only has to fire once every other crank revolution
http://www.delphi.com/docs/default-source/old-delphi-files/eac75895-5d45-4dd8-81c2-b8c21996a0a8-pdf

page 5 of that PDF has a nice chart of all the pencil coil charge times
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,120 Posts
Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
I was interested in figuring out how the Ignition Adjustment was calculated, and what it was compensating for, as you can turn it off in Neptune.

It appears to have little to do with the coil charging event, but advancing actual timing with RPM, for what reason?

I was hoping by using a Crank trigger, I could turn off the adjustments and tune the maps for a more straightforward approach. Or otherwise set them to 0, so idle adjustments still worked. Or uncheck to disable above 900mBar.

It's a bother to see the map hold 10 degrees, but watch the actual ignition wander towards 19 degrees at redline.... Means I have to program the end of map down, to compensate for an adjustment. Why not just have it run what you want? I want 10, not 1 table + 9(adjustment).

It makes the 2D ignition graph nose over at redline in response to the adjustment coming in more. Map does not match actual timing. I attached a picture of my map I ran last build. Ran fucking awesome

If I unchecked the box, I'd just shift the 6000+ flat, but only above a preset load. Headache.



The optimal dwell time is 2.8ms for these coils I'm looking at, trying to figure out how that relates here...
Reading the articles, thanks for the help so far.
 

Attachments

·
Brokedick Millionaire
Joined
·
40,570 Posts
Hate to say it, but when Blundell mentions don't fuck with it if you have no idea.....DON'T FUCK WITH IT!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,016 Posts
Hate to say it, but when Blundell mentions don't fuck with it if you have no idea.....DON'T FUCK WITH IT!
Haha I totally agree with this. Its been over half a decade since I've played with neptune bUT there were some "options" in neptune I simply didn't use or try to use because I knew I could work around it. Sometimes u end up just opening a can of worms trying to get some of that other shit to work properly. I'm very surprised also that u have something against james or have not had much help from him, who knows what's going on in his life but back in the day on hrtuning u could get answers back from him in a couple hours. That site seems to be pretty dead now days.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,120 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
The responses were short and dismissive. Unhelpful. He is interested in his business, and you know how that goes... The documentation wasn't exactly stellar, and there are plenty of well known shops that steer far clear of the platform due to their experiences of poor utilization and support, which makes the issue even worse.

The support he provides appears very good to the uninformed, and that pushes forward his business in a profitable manner.

I want better for his software, but have reservations.

Anyway

I am trying to get an idea so I can fuck with it.


Lets get back to learning
 

·
Brokedick Millionaire
Joined
·
40,570 Posts
Dave Blundell tunes, I build transmissions. We have tried each others forte....it didn't go so well.

I had more type out....but edited myself.
 

·
Registered
1991 Honda CRX
Joined
·
3,716 Posts
I really don't know why anyone would want to change dwell unless they are using an aftermarket coil, since those settings seem to be for OEM coils. The only time I set dwell though was on points-ignition cars.

thetoaster: I agree that customer support for neptune is very short and unclear. Whenever I have a question, I feel like I would get a better answer talking to a brick wall. To understand how to adjust something you must first understand how it works or how it is calculated, and the neptune support seems like a little kid holding on to a secret.

When I use neptune, I have all ignition corrections off at wot. So when I have 20 degrees of timing in the map, the actual timing is 20 degrees. This makes it easy to tune. So it is possible, you must still have some correction turned on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,016 Posts
Yea I'm just curious but are your original reasons for wanting to mess with the dwell to "fix" the timing issues? I know when I used neptune back then no matter what I did sometimes actual timing would be off from map but what I would suggest is read ur plugs. Nothing beats reading your strap after shutting ur engine off immediately after a pull. BTW what is ur setup?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,120 Posts
Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
I really don't know why anyone would want to change dwell unless they are using an aftermarket coil, since those settings seem to be for OEM coils. The only time I set dwell though was on points-ignition cars. You got it, I am trying to understand how these numbers are calculated so I can use aftermarket coils, or my own coil on plug.

thetoaster: I agree that customer support for neptune is very short and unclear. Whenever I have a question, I feel like I would get a better answer talking to a brick wall. To understand how to adjust something you must first understand how it works or how it is calculated, and the neptune support seems like a little kid holding on to a secret. Couldn't have said it better

When I use neptune, I have all ignition corrections off at wot. So when I have 20 degrees of timing in the map, the actual timing is 20 degrees. This makes it easy to tune. So it is possible, you must still have some correction turned on.
So you leave the ignition Adjustments off, and your pressure cut off is
~1000mbar. So all the 0-1000 is still seeing these advancements. Aren't you worried about a sudden drop of up to 9 degrees on and off throttle at high RPM, going across that barrier? You can see the abrupt adjustment in the log. Or did you step your map to fix that. Mind posting a 2d of your ignition maps


My car spends a fair amount of time on and off throttle at high RPM, Road Racing. So the tuning is a little more complex than a Drag car and is worth mentioning. Looking for consistency and smooth tune, makes the car feel better, and improves longevity


I tune, wire, build transmissions, engines, suspension, and the car as a whole. I dont want to not know.
 

·
Registered
1991 Honda CRX
Joined
·
3,716 Posts
Yes, I think it was 900mBar that ignition corrections stop and the actual timing and table timing match. All the ignition corrections are probably better, but this way I have total control of timing at wot.

I don't know exactly what you mean sudden drop of timing. At the rev limit when I shift my logs show pretty consistant timing for that short of time, it just drops to the lower rpm "map" value for the next gear. If I were to just let off the gas instead of pushing the clutch in (which I wouldn't ever do at high rpm), then it would have fuel cut for deceleration and timing would be in the high vacuum region. Go into more detail.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,120 Posts
Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
15% TPS 800mBar 8000 RPM -> Table (14) + Dwell (9) = 23
16% TPS 1000mBar 8100 RPM -> Table (12) + Dwell (0) = 12



That instantly cut the timing almost in half there,

Can you post your maps, Id like to see what shape you're working with, I leave them on across all loads and so I can turn down the map with RPM all together.
 

·
Registered
88 hatch
Joined
·
789 Posts
Yea even hr says dont mess with it and tuners dont mess with it. There is nothing to be found in the dwell area but a car that runs worse.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,120 Posts
Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Fuck HR and all you shitheads with your unhelpful, pessimistic attitudes.

Y8PWRDEF, and Car_freak66, you sound like an enormous pussy. What a bunch of losers. Can't believe you support ignorance. GTFO. Go talk about subs or vitaras


Thank you ZC, Shoebox, and 007, that's exactly what I wanted to hear, and likely what I will do.

That means I only have calculating the dwell figured out and I'm almost ready
 

·
Registered
88 hatch
Joined
·
789 Posts
Fuck HR and all you shitheads with your unhelpful, pessimistic attitudes.

Y8PWRDEF, and Car_freak66, you sound like an enormous pussy. What a bunch of losers. Can't believe you support ignorance. GTFO. Go talk about subs or vitaras


Thank you ZC, Shoebox, and 007, that's exactly what I wanted to hear, and likely what I will do.

That means I only have calculating the dwell figured out and I'm almost ready
My pussy is so big you can fit a bus in it. Whats wrong with vitaras? They work and can handle big power. Whats wrong with subs they taste great. I messed with the dwell and it didnt help. All it really does is allow the coil to have time to charge properly if I remember right from school. Stock ignition is good to 600hp why mess with it? There are better things to waste time and energy on than the dwell settings in the tune for maybe a 1hp gain.

Maybe try not being such a jackass too it usually doesnt get you far in life and it makes less people want to help you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,120 Posts
Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Sounds like you suck, Bro

You're so fucking retarded, I don't know where to start.

Welcome to the Ignore list, you steaming pile of shit.




I am here to improve durability, on and off throttle performance, Transient ignition values, support of aftermarket coils, trying to figure out how this software works with the author being a tool.

Nothing about 600 HP, nothing about how badly you failed trying to understand it, or how good you think a 30 year old system is.
Nothin about how you blew it up being a dumb ass. Nothing about peak HP gains,

You promote your stupidity and I'm not down with that.

Kinda Funny when you Google the topic, this is one of the top threads, with you telling us to ignore it, like others have been for years.

Go back to being useless and less of a bother.



Cam Angle vs RPM and Voltage Multiplier are the only values left to be understood.

"Dwell" is the number of degrees of distribtor cam rotation between lobes during which the points are closed and coil primary current flows. The definition also applies to electronic ignition systems, but rarely is the dwell in those adjustable- although with some, the dwell increases and decreases as engine speed increases and decreases. The reality of dwell is that it is a convenient way to measure, and adjust, the 'On' time for coil current. Dwell angle is also referred to as 'dwell angle', 'cam angle', and 'cam dwell.'

The importance of proper dwell adjustment is that the coil requires a certain length of time for the primary winding to reach its full, or at least useable, magnetic field strength (magnetic saturation) to provide reliable spark. Since the dwell angle adjustment affects the dwell time period (coil current interval), it is a fairly important setting. The actual dwell angle setting is a compromise that gives adequate coil magnetic field strength at high engine speeds, a short enough period to provide acceptable point life at low engine speeds, and enough point gap to prevent flash-over as they open. The condensor supresses point arcing upon opening, but the gap must prevent flash-over when fully open. "

So thats the angle of the cam before firing, that the coil starts charging?

So at 9000 RPM, if your ignition is 10 degrees BTDC, the coil starts charging 46 degrees or 56 BTDC?

It says Cam angle but isn't ignition of Crank Angle? Hmm That's not right

Trying to figure out the units for the voltage multiplier.
Looks like HR James failed science class.

Great Documentation

I don't support Neptune or it's shit author, thought it was better than this
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,120 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
covers it in some detail, how you'd find optimal dwell times for new coils

I got my optimal Dwell times

keep in mind, the most the dwell there could ever possibly be on a single coil 4 cyl is 90 degrees of the cam position sensor, so I have to think those values are additive not multiplicative

and yes, when using a single coil, you will still need that rpm based ignition advance - that's there because the charge time of the coil is essentially fixed, but the window to charge up the coil goes down as RPM goes up

Isnt the ignition advance for the belt stretch/CKP offset which can be fixed with a CKF crank trigger.. Then allowing one to zero out the tables with the adjustments still on. Advancing timing with RPM would give even less charging time, so this doesn't make sense.

As RPM increases and the charging window gets smaller, and this is why we see the Cam angle multiplier. It starts the charging at an earlier rotation, thus giving it more time with higher RPM.

I am unfamiliar with using Cam angle though, this seems to be the only spot it is referenced. Is it using the CKP as well to measure cam Angle?

So 40 Cam angle is 80 crank angle?

i.e. at 1000 rpms, it's firing 2000 times/minute, 33.333 times/second, or every 30 milliseconds
at 8000 rpms, it's firing 16000 times/minute, 266.66 times/second, or every 3.75 milliseconds.

This relates to the Cam angle, but not the Ignition adjustments. Now how this Voltage Multiplier works, is it additive?
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Top