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1994 turbo hatch
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
hey all. this one has really got me stumped. my ignition timing is way too retarded. here’s my setup:
Y8 head
Z6 Webb cam
ZC block
VMS adjustable gear
don’t know if this affects it but it is turbo

i had it running pretty good on my p06 with the cam advanced all the way and the ignition advanced all the way. i just switched it to a p28 chipped and uploaded the stock z6 map from crome, and now it is worse. timing is really retarded with dizzy all the way advanced
 

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1994 turbo hatch
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
So you have two on hand....
so the b7 and the z6 have the same gears i guess. i don’t really see how having a stock gear would help

i just read in another thread that you meet to increase timing maps 21.75 for a y8 cam in z6. i guess i need to decrease them by 21.75 for the z6 cam in y8?
 

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93 Civic HB SI
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1,169 Posts
Are you putting the ECU into set timing mode? Where it disables automatic advance so you can set timing with a timing light?
 

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1994 turbo hatch
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86 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Are you putting the ECU into set timing mode? Where it disables automatic advance so you can set timing with a timing light?
yes. also it is overly retarded not advanced. i am surprised that this isn’t a common issue. there are plenty of people putting z6 cams in y8s
 

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BATSLOMAN GIVES NO FUCKS.
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and actually using the right timing gears.

start from the beginning. set the crank to tdc, put the correct cam gear on it, set that to tdc. make sure you have the correct distributor and its pointing in the right direction, then do the proper timing of the car.

if you time it with the stock cam gear, THEN you can throw on the adjustable one and set MECHANICAL timing that way
 
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1994 turbo hatch
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
and actually using the right timing gears.

start from the beginning. set the crank to tdc, put the correct cam on it, set that to tdc. make sure you have the correct distributor and its pointing in the right direction, then do the proper timing of the car.

if you time it with the stock cam gear, THEN you can throw on the adjustable one and set MECHANICAL timing that way
ok so that just what i was thinking with the dizzy. i am using a b7 dizzy. is the z6 dizzy timed differently?

if i am correct, a z6 cam should have the distributor slot 4.75 retarded and the b7 dizzy would be another 4.75 to get 9.5 degrees retarded which would be equal to the 19 degrees that it’s off on the crank. so i would have to put the insides of a z6 dizzy in the b7

i think i should have specified how far off the timing is. the TDC mark is to the left of the timing mark on the belt cover
 

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You are using essentially a Z6 cam, put into a Y8 head.

Have you considered checking out what z6 and y8 topend swaps require for timing?

Bone/Transzex gave you a pretty strong hint of advice.

and "VMS adjustable cam gear" doesnt say much, as there are 3 different camgear alignments to be based on, two of which you have factory versions
 

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1994 turbo hatch
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
You are using essentially a Z6 cam, put into a Y8 head.

Have you considered checking out what z6 and y8 topend swaps require for timing?

Bone/Transzex gave you a pretty strong hint of advice.

and "VMS adjustable cam gear" doesnt say much, as there are 3 different camgear alignments to be based on, two of which you have factory versions
i’ve been searching for a while. the adjustable is a z6. i’ll try the b7 gear on there but i just don’t understand how that would account for 20* retarded. only thing i can figure is that the z6 dizzy has different internals and i found no info on that anywhere.

for clarification, right now it is sparking at about 5* ATDC
 

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20* retarded sounds like you actually have the cam gear off oneor two teeth.


Set the engine to TDC, loosen the tensioner, pop the belt off the cam gear, use a 14mm to spin the cam gear to the timing mark, then counterclockwise one tooth. Pop the belt back on, hand snug the tensioner bolt tightly against the belt, and spin the engine over with a socket and ratchet counterclockwise until the engine spins 4 times completely over, loosen and retighten the tenioner bolt, check timing again.

Then pop the distributor cap off, rotate it until the rotor is looking good. I like making a mark on the housing approx where the cyl#1 lines up, that way I can get the rotor's leading edge near it.

If the distributor is NOT an OEM honda distributor, you will occasionally have mechanical timing that far off, the attention to detail just isnt there with the aftermarket brands.
 

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Sloppy Jalopy
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so the b7 and the z6 have the same gears i guess. i don’t really see how having a stock gear would help

i just read in another thread that you meet to increase timing maps 21.75 for a y8 cam in z6. i guess i need to decrease them by 21.75 for the z6 cam in y8?
yeah.
no.

install the b7/z6 oem cam gear and line up the z6 mark on the gear.


if you still can't advance the dizzy enough you might have to grind the slots a little.
 

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1994 turbo hatch
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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
ok so i took the cam gear off and put the keyway straight up on the z6 cam. then i dropped the y8 cam in a bare head i had and put it with the keyway slightly advanced, so they are both the same rn. the distributior slot is clearly retarded on the z6 cam. i’ve done lots of timing belts. i’ve gone over everything several times. it’s not that i suck at setting the timing, but the distributor slot is actually off by a good amount. the question i’ve been asking is whether the z6 dizzy is made differently or if this cam is just weird, but nobody seems to know. z6 dizzys aren’t exactly common in my area so i cant just go look at one without buying a new one.

i had the same problem when i put the zc cam in my old b7 (with the y7 gear). the p06 ran it ok just like it did with the z6 in the y8 but the p28 is in closed loop rn so i can’t run very well. it seems to me like the 1.6L obd1 dizzys are set up differently than the d15 and the y8. the z6 and zc cams have the same dizzy slot, and the b7 and y8 cams have the same slots
 

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1994 turbo hatch
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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
137996
this is a bit of a rough sketch, but the circle is the front of the cam and the line is the distributor slot. i have all 4 if these cams here in front of me. the zc and the z6 have the same slots and the b7 and the y8 are the same. since nobody knows i guess i’ll go try to find an a6 dizzy and see if it works

EDIT: wonder if this is relevant
 

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93 4d lx, z6,ported, port matched, compression bumped, balanced, manual swap
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Has the block been decked or the head milled? Every -.005 of distance between cam and crank centerline will retard your cam timing by roughly 1 degree at the cam and 2 degrees ignition timing at the crank.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Has the block been decked or the head milled? Every -.005 of distance between cam and crank centerline will retard your cam timing by roughly 1 degree at the cam and 2 degrees ignition timing at the crank.
afaik the zc block has really low miles and was completely untouched when i got it. idk about the head, but i really think the issue is in the cam/dizzy combo
 

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93 4d lx, z6,ported, port matched, compression bumped, balanced, manual swap
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Ive never had that cause it to be so far off that I couldn't get it set where it needs to be. Just more to one side of the slot or the other, there is about a 25° or more sweep of adjustment at the distributor, so something must be wrong somehow for it to be that far off, either cams got mixed up, or they sent the wrong cam gear or the block has been decked or the head milled, something, somehow is off.
 

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1994 turbo hatch
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Ive never had that cause it to be so far off that I couldn't get it set where it needs to be. Just more to one side of the slot or the other, there is about a 25° or more sweep of adjustment at the distributor, so something must be wrong somehow for it to be that far off, either cams got mixed up, or they sent the wrong cam gear or the block has been decked or the head milled, something, somehow is off.
yeah so it is the dizzy for the cam. and it’s the wrong dizzy for the ecu. i’m pretty sure that is the problem at this point. looking for some conformation that the z6 dizzy will actually fix the timing (i know one of the bolts are off) before i go looking or spending money buying a new one
 
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