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Discussion Starter #1
I've recently been looking at where the most power is "wasted" in the daily life of a motor. I've come up with a few places people generally don't look. This thread will deal with the water pump and cooling system. Looking at the cooling system, you've got an impeller that forces water along a fairly obstructive path: Through hoses and the radiator: twisting, turning, separating, and re-combining. Running SMACK into a GREAT obstruction, AKA, the thermostat. Through the block where it's going back and forth around the cylinders.

We upgrade our intake systems with a low restriction filter and very few bends to prevent "separation". I asked myself, "Why don't I try this with the cooling system? And, what can I do about this?" I came up with a few ideas, two that seem entirely feasable, although one is obviously more difficult.

My first thought was to splice a remote electric water pump into the lower radiator hose. A blockoff plate, for the OE waterpump, could be made very easily out of the OE pump itself. Remove the impeller (somehow) and still use the gear on the outside of the pump for the timing belt to wrap around. not the best way, but in theory, it could work.

Idea # 2 was to modify the OE water pump with an external electric motor to drive the impeller, while the gear spins on a bearing around the spinning shaft. The problems I encountered with this idea are the space limitations and finding a 12 volt motor that would spin the impeller at the correct speed. Admittedly, these ideas sprung up in the last 2 hours, and I haven't looked around as much as I could. Also the "correct" speed isn't necessarily the speed at which the motor is spinning the OE pump when you're pushing 7000 rpm... I need a formula to find the best speed for the water, and compare that to the speed the OE pump pushes out. The OE pump has a variable speed, but I don't believe that the new design must have variable speed as well, just enough flow to adequately cool the motor under high load and high revs(as this seems where the most heat is introduced to the cooling system).


First questions I have are about the electric waterpumps, themselves. How reliable are they? Could one be used on a daily driver without negative side-effects(like the dreaded headaches, swelling, or hot-dog-finger...lol)? What would be most important: flow rate, outlet pressure, or amperage draw? Who runs one on their daily driver?

Also, a little off topic, I don't believe the thermostat plays as important a role as many make it out to be. It just seems like a huge obstruction, to me. Maybe somebody could enlighten me with data besides: "the water doesn't spend enough time in the motor to cool it off." or "the water flows too fast." These are the comments that lead to my skepticism. My question to those would be, "if the water doesn't spend enough time in the motor, and it doesn't spend enough time in the radiator, then where does this extra time go?" I believe I remember reading that it takes the same amount of energy to cool water as it does warm it up.

Am I even making sense any more? Maybe I should stop thinking. Sorry. Feel free to sort through and make comments on an electric water pump setup that would actually work. Thanks in advance.

-josh-
 

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I'm pretty serious, here. I started thinking about what Bisi actually did to make his powerplants SO powerful. He spins those HUGE slicks like nothing. There are a lot of people out there who know how to build a fast motor, but he takes it to a whole other level. Granted, it's not a street car, but sometimes things developed in race-cars can make a noticible difference in a street machine (ahem...VTEC). All I know is, he's making a bunch of power, and it's gotta come from somewhere. I'm looking for those places... If it gauranteed 2hp atw, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

-josh-
 

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Bisi has electric water pump? News to me.

MOST people only go with the electric setup to maintain a constant water flow, say as if engine was at 4000-5000 rpm to avoid cavitation and drag of a faster spinning stcok pump.

You still have the bearing drag of the stock pump, just no impellar.
 

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The thermostat might look like a piece of junk...but it actually improves performance and fuel consumption. It maintains the optimum opperating temp in the motor ..by opening and closing to control flow...If you remove the t/stat you could find that the motor runs too cold..causing wear(lack of expansion) and also more friction,less power ....,I would rather upgrade to a "performance" t/stat that controls flow better by opeing at different temps....

This is NO :bull:
 
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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
transzex said:
Bisi has electric water pump? News to me.

MOST people only go with the electric setup to maintain a constant water flow, say as if engine was at 4000-5000 rpm to avoid cavitation and drag of a faster spinning stcok pump.

You still have the bearing drag of the stock pump, just no impellar.
AMkrew_1 said:
I'm pretty serious, here. I started thinking about what Bisi actually did to make his powerplants SO powerful. He spins those HUGE slicks like nothing. There are a lot of people out there who know how to build a fast motor, but he takes it to a whole other level. Granted, it's not a street car, but sometimes things developed in race-cars can make a noticible difference in a street machine (ahem...VTEC). All I know is, he's making a bunch of power, and it's gotta come from somewhere. I'm looking for those places... If it gauranteed 2hp atw, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

-josh-
I didn't say he specifically had an electric pump, but I see how you could think I did. Sorry for the confusion. I only mentioned his name because I remember reading something about how he used to improve efficiency to make (read: free up) power, and that's all I'm going after. I'm sure he has looked into improving (for his purpose) the cooling systems efficiency and come up with something else, though. I mean, it seems obvious that when spinning a motor that high, that was not originally meant to, you'd need to do something. I'm not suggesting he makes 3xx hp atw simply by modding his cooling system.

hondatrix said:
The thermostat might look like a piece of junk...but it actually improves performance and fuel consumption. It maintains the optimum opperating temp in the motor ..by opening and closing to control flow...If you remove the t/stat you could find that the motor runs too cold..causing wear(lack of expansion) and also more friction,less power ....,I would rather upgrade to a "performance" t/stat that controls flow better by opeing at different temps....

This is NO :bull:
Ever been to the races and all the domestic guys have their fans on and the motor isn't running? They want their motors as cool as possible(within reason) in order to make a good pass. I understand what you're saying, though, and it makes sense. I only suggested this because, from what it looks like, it's a major obstruction in the flow of water; And this, only if you're using a stock waterpump.

The electric water pump would get rid of the need for an efficient (less power robbing) cooling system design, and therefore, wouldn't matter (power-wise) if there was a thermostat or not. Because it's not being powered by the timing belt.

zc crx said:
I've been researching this idea myself.... Im going to be using one of these setups on my ZC this spring.

https://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/sto...ategoryId=26831
Electric motor that drives your stock pump, or

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stor...10135&langId=-1
Remote mount pump that completely does away with the stocker.
Thanks for the link. I've seen the remote pump, but didn't really look at the electric motor. The remote pump might work, but the electric motor is engineered for the small block v8 waterpump. The speed might be off, seeing as the sb impeller is a different diameter, different design, and has 2 banks of cylinders to cool. It would be interesting to play around with, though. It might actually work. We're on the right track with this one.
 

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Why not just remove the thermostat alltogether, and use a electric water pump and rig it to work like a thermostat(on/off at certain temps.)
 
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K2e2vin said:
Why not just remove the thermostat alltogether, and use a electric water pump and rig it to work like a thermostat(on/off at certain temps.)
I wondered about this myself. the only thing i could think of is it might cause "hot spots" in the coolant so to speak..... yes? no? Just a thought.
 

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zc crx said:
I wondered about this myself. the only thing i could think of is it might cause "hot spots" in the coolant so to speak..... yes? no? Just a thought.
Well, it wouldnt be any different than a closed thermostat.

The people on Honda-Tech that ran electric pumps had problems with the engine never reaching operating temps. The instrutions said to drill a hole in the thermostat so that pressure wouldnt build up and damage the pump; the pump turns on with the car. This saved the pump but also wouldnt let the motor heat up. Solutions were to use a manual toggle switch(not convenient for street use) or some sort of variable-voltage controller(automated potentiometer i guess), but I didnt keep up on that thread so I dont know if anyone found a reliable/convenient solution.

The switch method I suggested seems simpler, only problem is having a temperature-activitated switch. I'm guessing with all the scripts with crome they can make one that can switch the water pump based on the temp sensor.
 
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