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Discussion Starter #1
Well I have decided to build a new personal motor for the '88 Standard Hatch I'm going to pick up next week, I have most of these parts lying around and a few I have found in salvage yards semi close by so I will be going to pick them up over my break that starts at the end of the week for the next month.

Bottom End
D16Y5 Block [Free]
75.5mm PMS 01-03 GX 4 Door Natural Gas Pistons [Honda PN: 13030-PMS-A00] $46.33 Each
75.5mm OEM Honda Rings [Honda PN: 13031-PLR-004] $26.48 Each
D17 Crank [$200 for complete motor to salvage stroker parts]
D17 K1 Rods [$400 for piece of mind]
ACL Race Calico Coated Bearings [$130]
ARP Head Studs [$120]
D16A6 0.038" Head Gasket [$30]
12.51:1 Static Compression Ration which is EXACTLY what I wanted.

Head
D16Y5 Vtec E head with D16Z6 Rocker Transplant [Free]
Mildly Ported head with Atomization Dimples on Intake Side [Free]
Sheet Metal Intake Manifold [$100]
Still Debating on Cam

Theres still some other things I need to think about and consider. As far as gear box this will be putting power to the wheels through an '88 CG Transmission.

My goal is to break 150hp and possibly push farther on pump gas, but I think the 12.5:1 compression is about the limit of 93-94 octane I have available so I don't feel like pushing it farther.

That 12.5:1 is with the pistons 0.031" in the hole still, which means I could cut the block some to get a lot higher of compression ratio but I don't feel safe on pump gas doing so since this will be a daily.

If anyone has opinions or wants to comment, do it up. I enjoy discussion. I could use some insight and knowledge as to whats going to work with this combo as far as header, intake mani, throttle body, and cam/valve size combos. I would really like to engineer the shit out of this thing and push it as far as I possibly can.

This will be tuned on NepTune RTP and Demon combo, I do have an LC-1 for a wideband. I street tune quite a bit, so this isn't a problem but I have only done the standard setups and know fairly well their safety margin on timing. Does any one have an idea of the timing to run with this setup [Total timing @ 8000 RPM]?

I will update this thread with pics as soon as break is over and I've picked up the majority of the parts, right now I'm taking a break from my studies and I decided to let the cat out of the bag.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Bone you have a weird way of saying things, but I'm hoping you're saying this is by far a doable goal?
 

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The Great Weldini
91 civic
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Bone you have a weird way of saying things, but I'm hoping you're saying this is by far a doable goal?
yes he does after years of reading his posts.. there so much info in that post that all noobs can't even grasp. lol.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Ordering from Majestic. If they are out of stock I will try the local stealer or another online store.
 

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formerly allnaturalrex
1989 honda crx si
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Ordering from Majestic. If they are out of stock I will try the local stealer or another online store.
good luck with that buddy your going to need it wait im not sure if its the pdn pistons that are hard to find or the pms or both.
 

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1988 Honda CRX
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The CNG engine pistons are great for compression, but they do have bigger pins I think which means you need narrowed B20 rods I think from vague memory.
 

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OK

I found the data.

The D16B5 engine runs CNG and has 12.5:1 and 21mm pins.

The D17A7 also runs CNG and has 12.5:1 and 19mm pins like other Ds.
 

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formerly allnaturalrex
1989 honda crx si
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yea ok the d17a7 piston is the one thats available my mistake. hmmm pistons and pins are 250 plus rings hmmm im starting to get the notion thats it might be smarter to just go all forged at those prices then again what do i know. cause your using k1 rods for piece of mind on a n/a build when the stock d17 rods should handle your goals plus the tune will give you piece of mind. i guess the only time i think forged rods and cast pistons are ok are with a cheap vitara build but this is n/a. then again it looks like ur looking to build a efficient set-up by the piston choice and head. just stay away from the lame a6 headgasket which causes more headaches. try a cometic since your looking for a thicker headgasket or whatever.

i thought the y5 head was desired because of its roller rockers but yea i guess the lack of cam support forces u to go with z6 rockers
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
I'm using the Y5 because the quench and port design is the same as the Y8. Better burn. The piston design is efficient, but IF I did go forged I could get a piston made that would sit flush with the deck and possibly give me better quench and burn at a lower dome and same desired compression.

I know the compression I want, it's just finding the right piston rod combo for the right price. The weak D17 rods scare me. If I were to go all forged I do have dual stage fogger setup sitting in my room I could safely use and push this motor to its limit.

This is the type of discussion I want, as there are plenty of options and other people with different view points.

GreaseMonkey thank you for your insight. I will have to debate on a forged piston possibility from Bisi or Rollerwaves from Endyn. Hmm, what to do.

Edit: After playing with the Zeal Calculator I found that a custom completely flat top piston at 27.8mm compression height at 76mm bored would be completely flush with the sleeves and would yield a static compression ratio of 12.55:1 with a compressed gasket size of .037". Jump to .027" and we have a bump to 12.93:1.

Can anyone point out the benefits of a dome over a flat top. Or whether a dome sitting 0.031" would be more beneficial to burn?
I could really use some piston design and quench advice here.
 

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formerly allnaturalrex
1989 honda crx si
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yea for a build like this with nitrous i would go forged all the way cause at that compression and nitrous would need forged. well stock d17 rods in size look identical to d16 rods there just narrow in the big end if thats the case the rods could take n/a power. everyone with n/a builds run oem d16 rods cause i havent seen no one reach the limit of the d16 rods do d17 rods should be fine. but yea finding the right piston rod combo for the right price should be fun lol.
 

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From what I know, you want a piston to head clearance of .030 to .040. So, piston to deck height of 0 would be just fine with a .037 gasket. Make sure the head is straight, and you will be good to go, or to bump compression a bit more, shave .010 off it.

If you are already running a 0 P2D clearance, I don't know how much you could get away with shaving the head, depending on the cam you are running. Might run into P2V contact.

My plan consists of decking it to 0, shaving the head by .010, running a Bisi level X cam. Also probably going to run a .027 head gasket though, with super tight clearances. Perks of a race motor...

For safety though, I would use a thicker HG, if its not a race motor. Also, just spoke to Endyne the other day, it seems they don't do D series pistons any more :(
 

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Brokedick Millionaire
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Bone you have a weird way of saying things, but I'm hoping you're saying this is by far a doable goal?
I'm saying there is a thread on here that details the motor and it's tune, JD's SOHC Type R.

I;m first in line to buy the HART motor that was featured in 1998 GRM that at last dyno did 150 whp on "pump" gas but the octane is unknown.

I can get 112 octane gas at the pumps at Mid Ohio for example.

In short, it's already been done, SEARCH and you'll fond others have done it already!
 

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Dome gives higher compression but can slow flame travel and conducts more heat to the piston and oil due to higher surface area.

The compression gains normally help, but it depends on a bunch of other things that get involved in the compromises.

Generally, the best route is to keep everything else as tight as can still be safe then use the minimum dome to get the compression to suite your fuel and set up. At 12.5 I would expect you need some dome. Small domes really don't harm flame flow much, especially in a pent roof multi valve centre spark plug type chamber.

This approach puts the maximum amount of charge as close as possible to the plug as it fires.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Bone I have read both the GRM article before and the Honda Tuning HC 170 hp A6. But thank you for your insight.

Dome gives higher compression but can slow flame travel and conducts more heat to the piston and oil due to higher surface area.

The compression gains normally help, but it depends on a bunch of other things that get involved in the compromises.

Generally, the best route is to keep everything else as tight as can still be safe then use the minimum dome to get the compression to suite your fuel and set up. At 12.5 I would expect you need some dome. Small domes really don't harm flame flow much, especially in a pent roof multi valve centre spark plug type chamber.

This approach puts the maximum amount of charge as close as possible to the plug as it fires.
Thank you pat some of the information I really wanted. So basically I should get a flat top forged piston made and bring them to deck with the sleeves, or possibly run an off the shelf flat D17 piston. this will leave me with less surface area and less heat absorbtion via piston, and also help with flame travel? if so, I'm sold.

LOL - good luck with that. Call around and you'll see why I say that. You aren't the first person with this idea.
Didn't think I was. I know you know a lot about D17's foos, but have you personally called on these pistons before?
 

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Yes basically if that yields the compression you want. If not cut the head down till you get close to the valve seat inserts if necessary to reduce chamber size. If that still does not yield enough use wide flat domes, only as high as necessary to yield the compression you want.
 
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