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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
1. I think I can make this work.

If you don't, you are more than welcome to post up specifically why it will not. If you just "heard it won't work" and feel the need to tell me this, keep moving. Go post in the "my first honda = AM I JDM?" thread. Your opinion on lambo doors, 'modded' interiors, how JDM your ride is, and lots of chrome is welcome there.

2. I know this will not be a direct swap, but I don't think it will be that hard.

3. No you can't run this without engine management - with one exception. Maybe. I have an idea about this.


All right.

One more time. If you're here to poo poo the idea without any empirical data to back up your naysaying, go play in traffic or create your own thread.

The surmountable issues as I see them up front.

1. Cam sensor triggering.
2. Cam sensor location
3. Front oil return ports.
4. EGR
5. dipstick


The issues I'm not sure about just yet

6. Timing belt length as it relates to cam gear placement.
7. Will it hold compression?
8. IACV

Mix and match parts that need to be used to make this work.


1. D15/16 water pipe and thermostat assembly due to no D17 thermo housing.
2. D17 cam sensor
3. Modified D15/16 cam gear with D17 triggers
4. D15/D16 coolant temp sensors or inline water block and D17 sensors.

A note about the EGR solenoid. The engine and ECU have no idea if the EGR valve has exhaust gas running through it, right? That sucker could be located in the glovebox for all it matters as long as it's plugged in. Thoughts on this? This allows for more options to run this setup without kpro.

Some sordid history here on the D on this endeavor.

http://www.d-series.org/forums/engine-building/90773-d17z6.html

http://www.d-series.org/forums/engine-building/99217-d17-block-d16-head-can-done.html

On to some pics.

Here are a couple shots of the cam gear side. I need to take some measurements to ensure the gear is in the same place on either head - affects timing belt length - but according to my eyeometer they are. Also notice the D17 cam sensor on the D16 head. I can't move it even though the secondary (non-threaded) positioning pin is not seated in anything. Should be pretty simple to fabricate a small stay to keep it in place.

As far as the cam pickup goes, there are a couple options. Modify the D17 cam gear to fit a D16 crank, or modify the D16 cam gear with D17 cam sensor trigger 'ears'. The D17 kpro cam is modified to have the k-series cam triggers, so this is not anything new and I'm pretty sure I can DIY a semi-elegant D16-to-D17 trigger gear.







So that side looks simple enough.

Another easy one. The dipstick hole. The nice thing about Honda is that they really haven't done any extensive mold re-tooling in the past 20 years. The oil return hole on the back of the D16 head (intake side) is in the exact same location as the dipstick hole on the D17 head. So you just use a D17 valve cover on a D16 head and you're done. See?






Now things get a little trickier. Have a peek at the underside of both heads with the major differences highlighted. There is no major difference in the mating surfaces so there should not be any sealing issues as long as a D17 head gasket is used on the D16 head when its mated to the D17 block.





Now what about the mating surface of the head?

Well we have two sides to be concerned about. The exhaust side, and the intake side.

Intake side is easy. No problems there.



But what to do about those pesky oil return holes up front on the D16 head on the exhaust side? Good question. I originally thought about simply plugging them and letting all the oil drain down the back of the block. But the earth is not flat and folks could run in to oil starvation issues on declines and braking situations as well as possible cavitation issues from too much oil in the front of the head.

Solution? Tap the front oil return galleys and plug them with a chevy style cam button. Basically a flush plug with an Allen key center. Once that is plugged, drill and tap through the front of the head to access the return passage and install a 90° fitting with a line running into two more fittings on the pan. If you're boosted, I see no reason why you could not just run a 4-way fitting to a single return fitting on the pan which incorporates your 2 new external oil returns from the head and your turbo drain. This could also be accomplished with -4 AN hard lines and fittings. There are possible interference issues with the D17 power steering bracket, but I'll check that tomorrow.



 

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Discussion Starter #2
Another easy part is the passenger side of the head where the D17 water neck and EGR valve lives.

You don't have to mess with much. Swap over the cam plug from the D17 to plug the D16 dizzy hole and then deal with the coolant temp sensors. There are two of them on this side, just like on the D17. The thermostat is not tied in to the head like on the D17, it has a separate housing connected via rubber heater hose in between the hard line on the back of the black and the port here on the side of the head. An inline adapter can be put here for the D17 coolant sensors or simply tap the front of the water port cap on the D16 for one D17 water temp sensor and screw the other one in to the lower right part in the picture. The smaller port on the left will have to be plugged.






So that's where I'm at. I know there are things I have not considered, addressed, or thought out yet, so feel free to point them out. I am going to keep thinking about this.
 

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i like it when you think, foos.

definitely subscribed to this thread.
 

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this could be interesting...subscribed

just because i'm ignorant, why put a d16 head on the d17? looking for regular vtec? or does the d16 head have better natural flow? or are you looking to add the y8 mani and fuel system for return line ease?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
i like it when you think, foos.

definitely subscribed to this thread.
Sometimes it works out(half raddy in a D17), sometimes it doesn't (Vitaras in a D17). I think this might work and give 7th gen owners the opportunity to run all the different manis out there for D15/16s, keep coil the coil packs, and be able to have cheaper cam options. We'll see.

wow, this will be different, cant wait too see it done.
Well, this is just in its infancy, but I'm hopeful.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
this could be interesting...subscribed

just because i'm ignorant, why put a d16 head on the d17? looking for regular vtec? or does the d16 head have better natural flow? or are you looking to add the y8 mani and fuel system for return line ease?
Cam and mani options, surplus of of D15/16 heads and aftermarket support, etc. It's a more mature platform than the D17 and has a lot more support and aftermarket development than the D17.

I don't have any VTEC heads in my grubby mitts at the moment so this is just looking at the non-VTEC heads - D17A1 and the D16Y7. I don't know how the VTEC solly works on a D15/16 so I don't know if it will transplant well on to the D17 block and wiring setup without a lot of finaggling.


if it doesnt work out id be happy to buy the crank and rods out of the D17

I don't have a D17 block and RA in my hands just yet. Only the D17 head, and the D15 motor with the Y7 head.
 

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ah so ease of parts use...this is COMPLETELY understandable, i appluad your efforts and wait patiently for results.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
ah so ease of parts use...this is COMPLETELY understandable, i appluad your efforts and wait patiently for results.
Thanks. got some more ideas and issues to figure out, but that's OK.

The thing that has always concerned me the most was the oil return.
I re-discovered those two folks who put the D16 head on a D17 block and ran it with the dizzy on the D16 electronics. There's a link somewhere here about it and a couple Youtube vids. He plugged the front two returns and cut canals through the camshaft oil bath 'tanks' to allow all the oil to drain through the one port on the back driver's side of the head. To me, this is not optimum as you run into potential oil starvation issues on the cam from those baths not remaining full and also its relying on gravity so going downhill will still allow all that oil to pool up at the front of the head. But, it at least confirms that the head will seal on a D17 block and the deck height and timing belt is not an issue, which makes my job a little easier. The trick of it is going to get it to run on D17 electronics with coilpacks and all the OBD-IINag sensors that attach to the D17.

Subscribed. GL
Tons of great info, good job foos!
Thanks folks. I know it won't generate a lot of interest over here since I'm not trying to figure out how to put this combo into a pre-7th gen chassis - which has already been successfully (if sloppily IMO) done, but you guys are a lot more solid on the technical side of things. For the 7th gen folks, the tech gurus are me and a few others (no more than four active forum members) and I have an awful lot to learn yet.
 

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Hey, exciting to see this thread since I've been playing with similar stuff for a while. :D

IMO, the "easy" way is -

D17 crank / rods / pistons / oil pump -> Z6 longblock -> 7th gen chassis.

Then you are basically using a complete Z6/Y8 longblock, and you have the D17 crank trigger. Then all you have to do is make the cam trigger setup work, and you can run the D17 ECU. If you use a D16Y5 intake manifold, now you have an EGR. I guess the only work needed would be fabbing a driver's side mount, and making accessory brackets line up (or ditching A/C).

As it relates to your idea, I think it looks easy enough to bolt the D17 cam gear onto D16 cams - just need to drill / machine out the woodruff key into a dowel hole. If you use a cheaply available adjustable cam gear, you can compensate for any indexing differences.

For dealing with the oil return issues, my first inclination (without having the parts in hand anymore, though I could look at it when I get home) is to plug the front oil drains on the D16 and drill new ones that match the D17 headgasket.

Again, I think using the Y5 manifold / EGR is the trick.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Hmmm... I'll have to think about that, but it may be more trouble retrofitting all of the accessories to fit. Alternators have a different plug, AC would be gone, etc, and would also require folks to source an entire block (with all the potential issues) and it also becomes an illegal swap, plus you now have tranny issues because the D17 tranny does not (as far as I know) mate up to a D16 block - bolt pattern may be the same but starter location is different. I need to get (and will shortly) a D17 block so I have two complete engines to compare.


Although drilling matching oil gallies into the D16 head may be a good idea. I'll take a look at that tonight when I get home.
 

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Oh, just something to point out - the center oil line on the intake side is the feed *to* the head rather than a return. So there is oil pressure there.

Yeah, as far as drilling the front returns out, they just need to not hit any ports / water jacket, and at least partially connect with the returns on the block. I wouldn't feel any need to make them completely match the block, hell, even a 1/4" hole is probably good enough to get by.

I'll try to xray my Z6 head once I get it cleaned up and see what the passages look like. I'd imagine that Z6/Y8 will be the more popular swap candidates.
 

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what a nice guy, doing all this for those oddball d17er's :)


You mentioned leaving the egr valve in your glovebox. If the intent is to run obd2 engine management this may be an issue as obd2 does infact have a "EGR flow Nanny" and related codes. Running the y5 mani like shifty suggested may be the answer ?
 

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wow, what a headache. lol Good stuff none the less. Will be here for support! What about the Y4 intakes, any different than the y5/y8's?
 

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How can I help

As some of you might guess - I'm totally into this kind of innovation. Even if it fails, there tends to be knowledge gained as well as a basis for someone later to proceed further.

I don't have anything to add here Clint, but I do have a D17 and D16 blocks in my workshop which I plan on hanging onto but I can take pics or measurements if needed. Here are some comparative pics I can donate for now which you may have come across in my posts on this subject.

D16 and D17 blocks side by side

From the back (D17 on right):



From the top:

 
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