Honda D Series Forum banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
i've gotten a hold of a 2g CRX and plan on doing an engine swap in the near future (1 year). this car was bought to be my daily driver/commuter car. but i also want it to be quicker than it already is. here are my plans so far.

custom d16 (mini-me)
D16A6 Bottom End
D16Y8 head
OBD1 swap
Stock Manifolds and Exhaust

any of this will come way later:
port matched intake maifold
b18 60mm throtle body (smoothed out(
stock cold air intake(behind the bumper pick up tube/free flowing filter and smooth tube)
4-2-1 step header (portmatched)
HFC
2.25" resonators (2)
90* bend to the right
2.25" muffler then right out the side

still trying to do this:
also a modified tranny with a longer 5th gear i'm hoping... looking into that currently, i want a lower engine speed on the interstate...

well that's my plan for after i give the car a much needed tune up... which to me includes CV axle rebuilds, brake rebuilds, all new bushings, and shocks replaced...

thanks for the input in advance,
Steven Folchi

P.S. I was gonna sulk away and just be pissed off at you guys. but instead i decided to do a lil more research and come back swinging. so there you go. new plans and hell they're even easier than the first.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,586 Posts
Make life easier and get PLR or P08 pistons so you have a liveable compression. Don't go .040" O/S, keep it as little as possible so you don't crack a sleeve also.

If your doing all this other work then convert to OBD-1 and tune it proper so you don't blow everything apart by cheaping out on the most important thing.
 

·
Registered
98 Civic EX
Joined
·
3,189 Posts
you don't need to balance the crank...its balanced from factory

if you go obdi you won't need the rpm switch for vtec, crome/uberdata can control all that for you..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
728 Posts
For a moment I thought you were attempting to build a fuel efficient DD. Then I saw "port and polish head" and "performance valvetrain." This leads me to believe you have no idea what you're doing.

Tell us your intentions more clearly. (What do you want performance/economy wise?)
 

·
D-Series Destruction Master
Joined
·
6,710 Posts
i've gotten a hold of a 2g CRX and plan on doing an engine swap in the near future (1 year). this car was bought to be my daily driver/commuter car. but i also want it to be quicker than it already is. here are my plans so far.

custom d17
d16a6 block (bored .04 and honed)
d17a1/6 crank (micropolished)
d16a1/6 rods (deburred and shotpeened)
d15z1 pistons
d16y8 head (p&p and performance vavletrain)
ballanced to 10k rpms
rpm switch for VTEC

stock intake/exhaust manifolds
stock cold air intake(free flowing filter and smooth tube)
HFC
2.25" resonators (2)
90* bend to the right
2.25" muffler then right out the side

also a modified tranny with a longer 5th gear i'm hoping... looking into that currently, i want a lower engine speed on the interstate...

well that's my plan for after i give the car a much needed tune up... which to me includes CV axle rebuilds, brake rebuilds, all new bushings, and shocks replaced...

thanks for the input in advance,
Steven Folchi
Fixed. The forum does not read HTML...
 

·
D-Series Destruction Master
Joined
·
6,710 Posts
Make life easier and get PLR or P08 pistons so you have a liveable compression. Don't go .040" O/S, keep it as little as possible so you don't crack a sleeve also.

If your doing all this other work then convert to OBD-1 and tune it proper so you don't blow everything apart by cheaping out on the most important thing.
I'm going .04 over on my d15b2, but I did just stay at a holiday inn express. (Or whatever the fuck that is).

Endyn block posts to help with the sleeves...getting those installed too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,586 Posts
Even with the posts, 1mm is really pushing it. I woulden't go that far personally, but I know it can be done.
 

·
D-Series Destruction Master
Joined
·
6,710 Posts
Even with the posts, 1mm is really pushing it. I woulden't go that far personally, but I know it can be done.
if Don can do it in his race car, it should be fine for DD lol.

A d15b2 block can be found for dirt cheap or free...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,586 Posts
Your also talking race car that sees short bursts under maximum load vs. DD with continuious loads. It may be less force, but it's constant.

But if your going to go for it a D15 is the way to go, because you can get them for nothing.
 

·
D-Series Destruction Master
Joined
·
6,710 Posts
Your also talking race car that sees short bursts under maximum load vs. DD with continuious loads. It may be less force, but it's constant.

But if your going to go for it a D15 is the way to go, because you can get them for nothing.
exactly
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
i've gone back and edited some things in the first post so go check that...

Dweezil thank you for pointing out the obd 1 conversion. i can't believe i overlooked that. i was kinda hoping that i could simply monitor it with guages. but alas no. so swapping.

Angry thank you too. now that i've decided that i'm switching to a d16 build instead i was hoping you would enlighten me as to wat kinda revs i'll be seeing and wat kinda effective revs i'll be using.

Custom Junky i was gonna balance it because i was tearing it apart, but now that you mention it i dont see any reason to do that either. it's just wat i've been told you need to do wen building a motor.

Senoryandel. to be honest i couldnt believe that you actually said that to a new comer. but after doing some more research i see why you said it.

just for every one to kno i plan to use this car as my DD and autocross car. maybe like once a month or something going to events and having a stupid fun time. i simply wanted the extra power for simply the extra power. i just wanted to be faster and quicker. i also didnt think and still dont think that this setup will give me bad mpg. am i wrong in asuming that? wat kinda milage would i be seeing? estimates of course.

well thats all really. i'll be putting up a suspension thread over there at some point so that's where i'll be handling that. no pun intended.

thanks y'all,

Steven Folchi

p.s. if it seemed like i was being sarcastic or assholegetic i didnt mean to. i've been told i can seem that way wen i'm truly being earnest.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
728 Posts
Senoryandel. to be honest i couldnt believe that you actually said that to a new comer. but after doing some more research i see why you said it.
1) Honesty is simply the best policy, imo. (So long as one's big mouth can't get you into real trouble.)

2) You will find new comers garner the least respect on this site. Get used to it until you know your stuff.

3) Although you say you know what I mean, I will elaborate a little bit. Although I don't know the science behind head ports myself, I have read the Y8 head has "swirl ports." This leads me to suspect it may be difficult to port. That phrase to me sounds like wet flow could easily be adversely affected when porting for increased dry flow. That is simply my speculation. I would be careful who I trusted to port it, and would prefer they at least prove to me they understand the dynamics of that paticular head before I let them have it.

Head porting can show gains at practically all RPMs if done right (I'll stress again I'm very careful about who I trust for this). Upgraded valvetrain, however, has no practical function unless you are using an upgraded cam. It's a waste of money on a stock cam. And an upgraded cam with the modifications you have listed would also be a waste.

4) My comments on the rest:

As for balancing, here is an interesting thing to note:

"If you want to get excessively fussy about balance, careful oil management will cause more balanced loading than finding balance of components past 1 gram. Under real driving situations, you can easily have a 3+gram oil weight imbalance between cylinders while the rod is at at peak angularity with the crank throw (most important time to have balance).

Balance beyond a few grams just isn't critical. It looks great on paper, but resources would be much better spent elsewhere like dry-sump or a custom crankcase vacuum setup or something that will actaully make power."

Basically, I would just weigh the rods and pistons together on a simple scale, and make sure the weight is within a gram or so of each other. This paticular author and I agree very much on the need to perform lubrication system modifications. I would read some articles at theoldone.com to see how that is done.

Don't touch the rods, by the way. Just upgrade your rods bolts to ARP. I can PM you some info on that later when I have time to dig it up.

Drop the damn AFC. Get a real tune.

Also, for a N/A engine the importance of eliminating exhaust backpressure and promoting scavenging can't be stressed enough. I will PM you a link on how to do that later as well. Out of time now.

By the way, I normally don't respond this much to anyone's posts. But I can respect someone who is concerned about both lowering BSFC and increasing performance. Such an engine appeals to the efficiency nut within me. In fact, building engines for economic daily use, while still gaining as much power as practically possible is almost the only appeal to me of the D-series. I consider building sloppy race engines easy, but the prospect of building efficient, reliable hybrid race/DDs poses challenges which I find satisfying.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
i wish i could remember where i saw this but i kno i read somewhere that the point of those "swirl spots" was to create better swirl throughout the powerband. in that same article or forum i also read that the d-series already has efficient swirl already and that this is simply added swirl. i may be wrong, but iirc thats wat it was.

u say that an upgraded valvetrain is pointless, or not needed. i was simply going to retain the stock cam but replace the vavles and springs with titanium vavles and heavier springs. this was just to create less friction and to not have vavle float. i also planned on having a "valve angle job" done. iirc that is close to what it is called. it's where the backside of the vavle is cut to increase flow at low lift there fore increasing the powerband. if that's unnecessary then i'll simply leave it alone. prolly clean it up tho.

what is the best way to control the oiling system then? i've heard that the best systems keep the engine alive but wont bypass anymore than is needed. where would i go about getting one of these and where can i find more info on it? or is there a way to simply adjust the stock configuration so as to perform the same function?

dont the rods need to be strengthened? i was advised not to go above 25% of the stock horsepower with the stock rods w/o some sort of reinforcing to them. u say the bolts will be enough?

what's wrong with the VAFC? i thought that was a real tune.

i learned that for an NA motor that is tru. and the best way to keep the scavenging up and create the lowest backpressure was by keeping the velocity of the exhaust up. that was the point of having it be so short and simply a side exit. only one bend to deal with. the suggested pipe size is 2". since the resonators and 90* bend and muffler will add backpressure i over sized them to compensate. if that was wrong please let me kno wat i should do instead.

i truly am eager to learn more, cuz i thought i knew a good bit.

Steven Folchi
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,586 Posts
By adding fuel with VAFC or Emanage (without timing harness) your adding timing. It works to a point, but really causes more problems than it's worth. Keep it simple, convert to OBD-1 and tune with a chipped ECU.

As far as rod bolts, you'll break a rod before the bolts are an issue. Stock D16 rods are good to 200HP.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
728 Posts
i truly am eager to learn more, cuz i thought i knew a good bit.
/QUOTE]

I like you Steven. You have more than an end goal in mind. You are also interested in doing what is necessary to get there.

The "swirl ports" notation never quite made sense to me either. All engines swirl the fuel/air mixture for fuel atomization. But I assume this title may not exist without reason. The Y8 head may house a particularly "swirly" port configuration. Again the science escapes me, but I would definitely consider talking to someone who unders that science before I'd consider letting them port my Y8 head. As for the valve job, I don't think you can go wrong there. A proper valve job can yeild mucho flow gains.

As for the valvetrain, it makes sense that a heaftier spring would actually require more force to open valves, and therefore increase drag on the engine. Does it not? Retainers just don't seem like they could help that much in terms of power output for the $$$ with a stock cam, and stock redline engine. Keep in mind that with the stock cam/redline maintained, although reving it all the time will decrease valve spring lifespan, you will not experience valve float.

As for the rods, I used to believe the machine shop too about taking out imperfections in the castings, and shotpeening. However, I have read some convincing evidence to the contrary. I have PMed you a link with that info.

As for the exhaust system design, I have PMed you a link with info on that as well. But here's a quick note on what you've described: while you may think it is logical that increasing the cross sectional area of a pipe will offer less restriction to fluid flow, and therefore higher flow velocity than a smaller pipe, this is in fact not the case. It is not as easy to restrict the flow of a fluid as we might think it is, since a fluid will automatically assume the shape of its container. (Rivers still rage past boulders do they not?) This is also the reason fluid flow slows through a larger pipe. It slows as it expands to fill the pipe. I am not an expert on fluid dynamics, but that is the best way I understand it and can describe it. This animation should help you visualize what is happeneing. http://home.earthlink.net/~mmc1919/venturi.html It is true that high RPM, high power engines require larger exhaust flow volume. That is not of concern to you though. I'd advise you to start with the exhaust port as the reference to size your pipes, and don't be afraid to size them too small from there. Follow the criteria from the info I've provided you via PM, and you should be golden.

Almost forgot, lubrication system. Perform flow modifications as outlined in theoldone.com articles. Shim the oil pump for increased pressure. I'm personally very strongly considering a remote oil filter relocation for my own car also. While that won't effect anything performance wise, it would make oil changes a lot easier for me. Oil pressure gauge is a nice thing to have as well. I'm also looking into a vacuum pump crankcase evacuation system right now. Such a system lowers crankshaft windage losses, and increases piston ring seal. Dry sump would be nice but it looks as if it might be too expensive to be practical right now. I will investigate further into that later.

Out of time again. Hope all of this helps.
 

·
Registered
1997 Civic Hatch D18Y8 M62 S/C
Joined
·
2,663 Posts
I'm sorry Steven, but I don't understand your build at all. You say want to make your daily driven commuter car faster and quicker and all the while get better gas mileage? But you're discussing things like swirl ports, titanium valves, and crank balancing at 8000 rpm? Dude, you need to get down to the basics and stop overthinking the small stuff that's just not gonna matter in a DD. Just how much time in your commute are you gonna be whining out past 6000rpms? or even 4000rpms for that matter. Do you plan on doing a full out drag launch at every stop sign and red light and hit the rev limit through town?

Think basic I/H/E then compression and fuel and go from there. You list stock parts for all of these in your build.

Read Hellhatch's sticky.

http://www.d-series.org/forums/showthread.php?t=21761

Read this please:

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=335078

As an aside, it's not difficult to port and polish the Y8 head. I did my own and my my engine flows nice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
31 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
life sucks

well this is just great. i finally get to a point where things are really coming together for me. wen the shit hits the fan. a family emergency has come up that requires that i pay for things i shouldnt have to b/c we dont have the money. so instead of my money going to me and having my life it's going to my dad so he can get the treatments he needs. i kno that may sound selfish. but it happens all the time to me. i finally start getting somewhere and then shit falls apart. so now my plan is to simply do a mini-me with the obd1 swap and attempt to change the 4th and 5th gears on the tranny to HF 4th/5th gears for better mpg on the interstate and in town at those speeds. so yea. i've heard that the mini-me can actually get better mpg so that's the only reason i'm still planning on doing it.

thanks everybody but idk if this will ever be done now.

Steven Folchi
 

·
Registered
1997 Civic Hatch D18Y8 M62 S/C
Joined
·
2,663 Posts
Hang in there dude, it took me many years to get into a financial position to be able spend the money that's necessary to do builds the way I want. But I'd trade it all and then some to be in a position to save my father's life - if he was still with us.

Help him but keep reading and planning.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
728 Posts
Think basic I/H/E then compression and fuel and go from there. You list stock parts for all of these in your build.
Although I don't use stock exhaust manifolds (as they are obviously shit), I always start builds with an overhaul of the block (but stock blocks are inadequate for me, some think they're fine).

I'm too lazy to read the H-T article, but I have read this one years ago. It was a great article for its time, and almost all of it still applies. The author obviously had a lot of experience with these engines. There are a few things that we know to be out dated today though. We now know that big TBs and port matching are not good ideas. Higher compression can be run safely with proper quench. 76mm bore has been proven safe. Though SMSP is the only decently affordable AC/PS friendly header maker, Bisi headers (though not made now) are still the best. Clutch, transmission, LSD, etc are also not addressed. Just a few little things.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top