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civic twin charge

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#1 ·
hello

So am in the process of building a FI 99 civic hatchback

the car was in my family since day 1 of its life as a DD but as it grow older and start breaking up i bought the car wanting to make a fun little car

the car came with the D15z4 engine and automatic transmission and weired ecu with 2 plugs only, some sort of P3S as i recall which is common in cars sold in Asia
the engine was a total loss so i put a ZC Sohc and since manual tranny is as hard to find localy as a unicorn i drove 1200 mile .got my self Two d tranny swap and a d16y8 style Intake but comes little bigger and some other parts which included a near new Blitz supercharger (clutch opreated) and couple of IHI impreaze turbos IHI Rhf5hb

well i rebuild the car to a near zero mile restroation but the car is not fun , its slow dead slow .

i did my newbie search , i do own a car repair shop and am a car guy but more of american stuff and a evo 4 which i had back in the day. so honda in general is challenge that i want to take.

i did visit to the local shops in hope to find an insterting D engine to swap but all ZC sohc or weird stuff like a D16B on a HRV and yes its original

but i found sh1t load of F22 , f23 ,f20 you name it accord engines which i can get for the price of a couple of coffes ar starbucks . but all Automatics , manual f is impossible to find

so am in a pickle i have two blocks ZC and a a d17 and a supercharger which is capable of 4 psi boost i can get my hand on ZC and F engines . and two complete D tranny swaps.which one is already in the car . which some people say its good some say its weak.

and i orederd a speeduino to control what ever will be in the car.

So if i want a fun car lets say 200-250 hp which i can drive for long rides what should i do.

A D rebuiled will save me alot of work but will cost an arm and leg + international shipping.

An F will be cheap but require alot of work

And yes the SC is in the process of getting welded on the intake manifold to ceate something similar to JR SC.
And i choice the IHI turbo to creat a low end power and minmum lag
 
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#2 ·
my idea for the f swap is to get the engine with the auto tranny cut the bellhouse of the auto tranny and welded on the d tranny , for all i know it might work or its dump as ****.

so please bear with me
 
#3 ·
I'd forget the twin charge system. It's not going to be easy to design the system to switch to/from the different charge systems (turbo/supercharger), and unless you're running bypasses then either the supercharger is preventing the turbo from being efficient, or the turbo is preventing the supercharger from being efficient. Plus routing the charge piping through coolers etc... Nightmare to design, nightmare to work on and more things to go wrong.

Your power goals are very achievable with a small turbo which wont have the lag hole you would need to plug with a supercharger.

I'm fairly sure i've seen off the shelf F to D series adapter plates which allow you to bolt an F series to a D series trans. Google "F to D series adapter"

Out of interest, was the supercharger originally OEM to a car? Or is it an aftermarket item?
 
#4 ·
well your right the twin charger is a bit complex , i might ditch the turbo and keep it for anther project if i can get away with supercharger only .

i prefer the supercharger because its clutch control like your ac compressor and it sounds real nice.

But do you have an opinon on engine choice.

yes that supercharger was an oem aftermarket kit by biltz that doesnt void your warrinty. its more popluar in the east.

from my experience its some sort of Aisin 500 with long shaft roots blower type
 
#6 ·
I'm not sold on the clutch type supercharger, I think the good thing about a supercharger is the linear response you get when rolling on and off the throttle. I think that feeling would be ruined by engaging/disengaging the supercharger based on a TPS signal for example. You would feel the engagement shock before the boost overcomes the parasitic drag. Imagine the feeling of your AC engaging every time you accelerate hard... Of course, you could control it manually, but what would be the point? You'd just leave it engaged...

Also i don't think you will see anywhere near your power goals with that supercharger on any of the motors you're thinking about. Also i doubt you would need to aftercool the charged air if you're only seeing 4psi.

I like superchargers too, i'm running a jackson racing charger on my ZC, aftercooled. Seeing around 10psi. Makes around 170hp atw.

The F series is an underrated motor, and the extra torque you'll see from 2.2L would be much more impressive than the 4psi supercharger on a ZC. But if you can't afford to ship a manual transmission, i'd probably go with the ZC because it's easier.
 
#5 ·
BTW Aisin is very popular among old timers trying to get more power from 4 cylinder engines

and in the civic case it fits so nice your a left for space to put a water-air intercooler

and if you dont want AC you can fit in the ac compressor location
 
#9 ·
ok bellhouse changeing is that you bring two trannies the one that you want to use but doesnt fit the engine and a damaged tranny that fit the engine you cut the bellhouse i mean not you but a machine shop and weld

i decied for the engine i will use a b20b with exterinal wiring for the speeduino
and my ZC i will rebuild it with better pats and keep it. am also thinking to get my hands on a del sol so it will be useful down the road

As for FI i will fit the supercharger first and tune and see how it goes then decied later

taking to many major upgrades at single time can cause too many issues

BTW the supercharger of this types doesnt require a bypass if its off, because it alows air to "leak " through so the only problem "theoretically" is the piping so if i remove the stock fans and install a nissan multi speed fan in the back with two fans up front might solve this issue the end result will be a very nice powerband with high low end power
and not need to rev the engine crazy
i dont know why i cant post picturs but when i have more interseting pictures to post i will look into it
 
#12 ·
BTW the supercharger of this types doesnt require a bypass if its off, because it alows air to "leak " through
Whether it leaks or not, if you don't bypass it it'll drastically reduce the power of the turbo when you're out of the efficiency range of the turbo. Also the turbo will restrict the supercharger if it's not bypassed.
 
#10 ·
i just found out that the bell house swap trick wont work in this case ....

so it seems that am sticking with a ZC for now i will keep the b engine get a B tranny and a del sol
 
#15 ·
Thanks for the support everyone

This project is alive , one major thing is that i got anther ek x)
the one that will get twincharged is the red
The blue will only get b20b and just be a DD


So what is done up to now. not the fastest but what to do job ,family ......

upgraded the fuel pump (chevorlet something 3500cc engine)
Fuel Pressure gauge and FPR (EBAY)
Fresh D16y4
turbos i have a nissan 16v , and IHI vf25 and IHI VF32 from a JDM legacy.
BOV 42mm active autowerke , it seems that i need to change it later once i get all working properly even .
Boost controller HKS evc 3 (will be replaced later)


starting next week all the parts will be sent to my local machine shop for custom intake and all the fitting work i found this picture and i like the way the fit the SC

 

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#16 ·
I had a twin turbo subie with those turbos. the VF32 wouldn't come on song until like 4500rpm leaving a huge boost gap between the primary and secondary turbos. I've seen it called 'the valley of death' haha.

The nissan turbo should work well. I'd wonder if the Subie turbos might not be sized right for a 1.5.

That manifold looks cool.
 
#17 ·
thanks for the info ,i have been searching alot about these turbos all i could find JDM legacy 450 cfm ,

i think that the vf32 issue is from the wastegate and the design of the exhuast inlet , it have the largest wastegate acurator i have ever seen.


BTW i am using this book as a referance "Maximum Boost by Corky Bell" great book
and since its an old book it covers 90s cars very well with cost effective solutions without any shortcuts

Like for fuel ,ignition and engine internals
 
#18 ·
So today using my mock up engine
Auto part Engine Vehicle

Motor vehicle Engine Vehicle Auto part Automotive engine part


tried to see how it all goes and decided against manifold fited SC since intercooler fitting will be hard and if a small intercooler to be fitted a weight issue may happen because I don't see how the studs will carry the weight so I will the vortech system to fit it with driveshaft driving the SC above the exhaust manifold Engine Auto part Vehicle Car Automotive super charger part
 
#19 · (Edited)
So today using my mock up engine
View attachment 125323
View attachment 125325

tried to see how it all goes and decided against manifold fited SC since intercooler fitting will be hard and if a small intercooler to be fitted a weight issue may happen because I don't see how the studs will carry the weight so I will the vortech system to fit it with driveshaft driving the SC above the exhaust manifold View attachment 125321
I'm running a manifold cooler:



You can see the coolant ports coming off the manifold. It doesn't really add any weight to the system. I'm also running a 5mm thermal gasket... I bought ARP studs which are advertised as being longer, but they don't thread the last 5mm of the stud, so they're actually shorter than OEM, so i had to run the original OEM studs which are carrying the charger system fine.
 
#20 ·
The main benefit of the manifold mounted supercharger is the throttle response because there’s less volume to fill between the supercharger outlet and the intake valves. Throttle response will decrease as you move the supercharger further away and add additional volume with extra piping.

Like 92CXyD said, Rabid (user here) successfully built a twincharge setup and had good results road racing it. You should search for his thread. Prob a lot of great info there.
 
#25 ·
On the stock motor it was about 11psi on this pulley, but it's dropped down after porting etc. Is it enough cooling... Can you ever have too much cooling? Haha.

Seriously though, other people seem to be running this setup successfully. I'm still ironing out a few things that are affecting my temperatures, so i haven't been able to see a real benefit to it yet.

The guy who tuned it though did say he could put in a lot more timing due to lower intake temperatures compared to before, so that's something.
 
#29 · (Edited)
ppl done it too many times , am not a fan of h (way over rated), when you smoke someone with a D sohc well you know ,its not a track car

also i can build a bulletproof d for the price of a second hand h22

am not a big fan of engine swaps unless its realy needed ,if i wanted a swap i could have swapped a 4g64t with a 2wd manual tranny and got 300hp easy

And swaps come with issues > learned that the hard way so am looking for a realiable car with lots of low end power when<Needed>

BTW the car will end up looking very much OEM all metal pipes will be covered by plastic junk even the turbo will be very much hidden its a sleeper build

Yes there are two map. One in the manifold and one in the pipe between the supercharger and throttle. It is basically two closed loop boost controllers. The bypass controls the manifold and the turbo map sensor is normal wastegate control. The position of the throttle and transmission gear selection determines the boost target. The target mapping is independent but I usually set them equal.

hi rabid iam using a nissan electrical throttle of an altima 2006 or something it have a 3 wire

+close -common +open , you can either just apply 12v to close or open or use 0-12 for more control

how is the megasquirt holding ? ,i have heard it have many issues .

am planning to use speeduino for my setup , when not in boost the oem ecu will be used and the speeduino will control an extra injector(s) to correct the AFR and ignation

and why not ur running both the SC and turbo to get more boost
are you running the stock cam?

we use this setup for my brother challanger 2012 with anther sc14 supercharger
worked very well ...stock to boost in one click

i know i know its too way small SC for the v8 engine he just use it for braging and for the sound and it realy give him some hp gain and we like the clutch opreated SC

BTW it looks cool he have two air filters and a reverse T intake .

On the stock motor it was about 11psi on this pulley, but it's dropped down after porting etc. Is it enough cooling... Can you ever have too much cooling? Haha.

Seriously though, other people seem to be running this setup successfully. I'm still ironing out a few things that are affecting my temperatures, so i haven't been able to see a real benefit to it yet.

The guy who tuned it though did say he could put in a lot more timing due to lower intake temperatures compared to before, so that's something.
Well i live were during summer its over 105 degree ,even during the night so cooling should be taken serouisly thats why am going with water intercooler

all parts sent to machine shop lets see what they say

dont blame me for the typos blame the beer x)
 
#23 · (Edited)
I’d love to see someone come up with a twincharge setup that completely bypasses the supercharger.

Seems like it would be relatively easy to do with the stock JRSC design by opening the bypass valve at the point where the turbo is out flowing the supercharger.

Maybe using some kind of stepper motor to control the bypass valve instead of the vacuum diaphragm. Perhaps you could install another MAP before the throttle body and use some kind of controller (Arduino?) to open the valve when the voltage on the intake piping and in the manifold MAP are equal.

Keeping the bypass valve closed during idle and off boost situations would decrease gas mileage but I can’t see that being a huge issue to someone wanting to build a twin charge setup.
 
#26 ·
THIS IS how my twincharger works. It uses a honda throttle body that's been gutted of everything but the butterfly and is servo controlled for the bypass. The boost is computer controlled with custom megasquirt code that I wrote. You don't want the bypass closed while pulling a vacuum on the throttle because you'll overheat the air. Transitioning from supercharger boost to turbo boost is tricky and requires the precise closed loop control from the servo.
 
#30 · (Edited)
so it been sometime , and after too many brain storming and studying me and the machinist agreed we will fit it entirely different than what people done it before .

am posting this updates so if anyone in the future would like to supercharger a d or Honda can have some options

first with vortex style supercharger , well its a great system BUT it only works with a vortech SC or something tiny like an AMR, also you will have problems with AC pipe and straightness of your drive shaft .

JR style ,,,will these people really had a great effort in R&D for this tight fit which is really hard to duplicate and with the belt issues. and driving without alternator is out of the question.

the "buick SC" guy will this person was an inspiration but his setup is over complicated and over engineered

ME ...hmm we will be using the power steering belt to drive a pulley which will drive a couple of pulleys to get the power to the SC
there will be a pipe fin cooler inside the custom intake
three major things i like about this setup
there was zero body work involved to clear things
its a modular design which i can put a bigger / smaller SC or change the speed of the SC using different pulleys ,even for cooling i can later get a better custom intake cooler
and last readability only concern is power steering belt failure which will keep the car derivable



cost up to now is below 700 usd and half of the cost is for the SC itself
i know i can get a JR SC for a few extra bucks but it wont have a clutch or inter cooler and the sc itself wont be anywhere the condition the one i have.









 

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#32 ·
yep 5 belts :wacko:

but its is the only way to go , again its a big sc well at least bigger that JR and AMR and we are trying to get the power further inside

about his welding yep the guy isnt the best aluminum welder out there but its not finish yet that box was modified more times than i care to count.

also he is old school just look at the machine behind the engine ,so no cnc no jet cutter only your typical ww2 machinery

BUT it will not cost me a fortune, anyone with access to basic tools can replicate my setup with a different sc and its very reliable

One update ...cutting an automatic intake with the upward throttle is useless as you will end up with 2 shorter runners and 2 longer runner

so you need an intake wide side throttle
 
#34 ·
x) :D i do hear that alot ,

well my approach is that you have a good or @ least ok base you work on it rather than fitting parts that was never meant to "swaps".

and trying to be as modular as possible to allow for further improvement and there is nothing wrong with some trial and error as long as you do your homework

yep i will share all updates and i appreciate the support from this forum
 
#37 ·
no its not , i have connections son hahaha

nah really , since i deal with these people alot the are really helping me out when it comes to cost, like the machine shop are doing the work on there free time and BTW any body who can weld can get this sh1t done anyway

these are my latest updates , with these measurements you can use most sc without any clearance issues

the cooler is is pc water cooler from ebay that had been modified. the tube and fin cooler doesn't`fit correctly

as i said before this setup isn't for everyone , and am not against the big guys anyway these people had put a lot of R&D into their products which i respect
so basically am reinventing the wheel because i cant find the wheel i want

did i waste alot of time? yes
did i waste alot of money ? no
did it cross my mind to scrap the whole idea yes
is it better than ready made products yes
why ... well i can modify the system to achieve my goal .











 

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#39 ·
Dude that manifold is awesome! +1,000,000 points for no f***'s given on the fab work. Whatever works!

I like the creativity for the homemade charge air cooler, but you have way more balls than I do just "placing" that PC liquid cooler radiator in there lol!

Maybe a suggestion? If I were building that, a concern of mine would be the working pressures/temperatures/vibrations that cooler would be subject to day in/day out. I don't think a PC liquid cooling system radiator was designed to operate in the extremes of what you might find an engine working in. Why not use something like a transmission oil cooler, so you know the component can take a bit of a beating?

I saw in your post that it looks like you tried to use a tube and fin cooler, but had problems. They make parallel flow transmission coolers that don't have tubes sticking out the sides for very reasonable prices:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/UNIVERSAL-...c:g:AWoAAOSw8AhaPjO~:rk:7:pf:1&frcectupt=true

If you used a cooler like the one in the ebay link above, you could drill two holes in your manifold for the outlet ports to poke out of, then weld the outer case that holds it to the inside of the manifold. Hard to explain using text, but see the picture attached I drew to help.

They make that cooler in all kinds of sizes, I'm sure you could find one to meet your dimension requirements!

If you are dead set on using that PC cooler, hopefully you build some sort of plastic/rubber frame for the cooler to sit on, that way it's not aluminum on aluminum just sitting there rubbing against each other. If you don't, that cooler might not last long until it starts leaking!
 

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#42 ·
quick nooby question , since my engine bay is a mess can i get away with "canceling " a few vacuum hoses

i have one from the valve cover , one from the black box on the block ,and the charcoal canister
 
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