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'93 / '95 Del Sol Si - '95 DX Coupe - '00 Accord EX F23 Manual
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2,214 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Using -
P28 (doesn't really matter)
Moates Ostrich 2.0
Crome

I was doing some research and found some people with the same issue. People who had wasted loads of money on new main relays, new distributors / distributor parts and even new ECUs. One guy dropped about $600 before giving up and selling the car. Here are the symptoms -

  • The car will randomly start up cold with the Ostrich or any chip that has been burned with information from the Ostrich.
  • The CEL light will turn on and off when the key is turned to "on" position just like normal.
  • There are no other symptoms with this issue.
  • When you crank the car, it behaves EXACTLY as if the ECU fuse has been pulled. Will crank and crank with no start. Like a dead dizzy rotor or NO CHIP in the ecu...except there is NO CEL.
Here is what happened with me -
I was tuning my car late at night. Driving around and tuning partial throttle. I stopped at the store and was in there for about half an hour. When I came out, my car wouldn't start. Just cranked and cranked. Stranded. Eventually, I got it started up and got it home. As soon as I was in the driveway, I turned the car off and tried to start it back up. Nothing. As if some troll had stole my ECU fuse.

I go through a bunch of bullsh*t. Even running the "Doreset" program on the Ostrich. Car starts right up...then, after about 15 minutes, I shut the car down and it won't start again. Again, there are no other symptoms with this. I began to think my brand new Ostrich was defective. Then, I began to believe my ECU had fried something somewhere (although I have never seen this personally).

I had one map I started with...and I was "saving as" while I made adjustments to my tune rather than writing right over the file. I had all these stages of my tune on my laptop. Every one I loaded gave me the same result. Which made me think the Ostrich was screwed...then the ECU.

HERE IS WHY - Somewhere along the line, the first tune became corrupted. Yet, not corrupted enough to throw a CEL code. Everything looked legit. But the car would not start. After reading other people's posts with similar dilemma's I thought, "Corrupted". I went out, loaded a stock P28 and it fired right up. Then I made an entirely new map and imported my fuel and timing tables over to it. Problem solved. That means that every "save as" after the first one was corrupted as well. And every chip that was burned from those bin files had the same corruption too. When I put chips in the ECU that had been burned from those tunes, the exact same thing happened. Also, I was tweaking for a couple days before this started...so this means someone that isn't tuning their car themselves could leave their tuner thinking everything is cool just to wind up completely stumped and stranded a couple days later. Just in my short time researching, I read about half a dozen cases of this and most of these people just kept throwing money at their cars on the advice of other people (mainly Honda-Tech advice)...

What you need to do -
  • Start a new bin / map or tell your tuner / street tuner to read this
  • Import fuel and timing tables over to new map
  • Make your adjustments (Vtec Engage / Idle / Launch Control / Etc.)
  • Send it to the Ostrich
*Problem solved
 

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93 Civic HB SI
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766 Posts
I had a similar corruption issue with my Demon, randomly out of no where if I uploaded a file to it, then tried to pull the tune back 'down' from the demon, the timing and fuel cells showed some random freaking numbers in no particular order.

I ended up finding out that there were two issues:

1) Your not supposed to pull 'down' from the demon when you want to view the tune. Your supposed to work a tune file locally, upload changes when finished, then mod the local file only and only upload new changes to the demon. To me, this concept was weird to follow at first, because I thought that pulling down the tune from the demon each time would provide the most correct view of the tune actually running on the demon. Apparently only working locally then uploading each time to the demon is the proper way to do it, but my most recent car running a demon was the only car I've ever experienced the demon download problem with. All of my other cars, as well as friends cars did the download perfect each time, no screwy fuel/ignition cell values. If this doesn't happen to you, then please ignore this advice. I only started doing this when trying to troubleshoot my particular issue with my latest demon/neptune setup.


2) I ended up narrowing down the source of corruption during a download, EMR. The USB cable to the demon I was using didn't have any ferrite beads attached to it. I went to Best Buy and bought like 10 of them, and put 5 of them on the USB cable. Problem solved during download. I did find that I could initiate download corruption if you placed the laptop power brick next to the USB cable during download, even with all the ferrite beads. Bottom line, when downloading, consider forms of nearby EMR if you have problems with tune corruption, either up or down.


3) Apparently there are more checks done to verify data during an upload to the demon then there are down, or there are simply fewer pieces of data/only changes edited during upload? I can't verify this, but it was brought up during a discussion with HRTuning when I was trying to troubleshoot the corruption issue. I trust the hell out of those guys though, seriously smart dudes. I have no reason to second question their knowledge of their Neptune product or their experiences with the Demon board, so that's what I'm riding on :)


At this point, I've gotten used to always working locally then uploading, never downloading. If I am in a position where I really need to fetch the tune from a demon, I first install a retarded number of ferrite beads to the cable, run only on laptop battery power, place a Ouiji board and a Buddha statue nearby, and pray to the Honda gods to deliver a non corrupt tune to my Neptune interface :)
 

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'93 / '95 Del Sol Si - '95 DX Coupe - '00 Accord EX F23 Manual
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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks for adding to this, man.
I was practically banging my face on the monitor when I was reading these other threads started by guys with the same issues. Reading along while they threw money at their cars. And ultimately selling the car for one of two of them. Ugh!

How do you like the Demon overall? And Neptune? Are you 100% with it or would you rather be using something else? I've been considering the Demon / Neptune before I start my next A6 / NoTec build.
 

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Meat Popsicle
91 CRX Si
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2,939 Posts
I know the feeling. My CRX w/ TurboEdit will start leaning out at idle after like 30 minutes of driving. I’ve tried everything I can think of and it still happens. I bought new injectors, added tons of fuel to the map in the relevant cells, removed all compensations/corrections, and it still happens.

I even bought a new ECU to try to resolve this. Crossing my fingers that the new ECU fixes it but if not, I am going to follow your advice and try rebuilding the tune from a stock tune
 

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93 Civic HB SI
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766 Posts
How do you like the Demon overall? And Neptune? Are you 100% with it or would you rather be using something else? I've been considering the Demon / Neptune before I start my next A6 / NoTec build.
There are a couple things I don't like about the Neptune software interface compared to Hondata's SManager (just nit picky things) but beyond that it's great. Demon2 works just as well as the latest S300 version.
 

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93 Civic HB SI
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766 Posts
I know the feeling. My CRX w/ TurboEdit will start leaning out at idle after like 30 minutes of driving. I’ve tried everything I can think of and it still happens. I bought new injectors, added tons of fuel to the map in the relevant cells, removed all compensations/corrections, and it still happens.

I even bought a new ECU to try to resolve this. Crossing my fingers that the new ECU fixes it but if not, I am going to follow your advice and try rebuilding the tune from a stock tune
Do you have an aftermarket fuel pressure regulator? I had something very similar happen, turned out it was my AEM rail mount regulator was creeping and lowering idle pressure too much, but it happened very slowly and only after everything was well warmed up. Took it apart, inspected everything but couldn't physically see anything wrong. Put it back together, haven't had the problem since. Go figure lol.
 

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93 DelSol S, 95 DelSol Si, 01 Odyssey EX, 04 CRV EX
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2,176 Posts
FYI; for years; CROME has had a save bug with gold ROMS specifically.

I personally have never had an issue with my 2.0 losing its rom state or being corrupted.... only the save bug with respect to .bin files. This is with both GOLD roms, and with eCtune.



To Paterico: might wanna do a hot water test on the IAT sensor.
 

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'93 / '95 Del Sol Si - '95 DX Coupe - '00 Accord EX F23 Manual
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Discussion Starter #8
There are a couple things I don't like about the Neptune software interface compared to Hondata's SManager (just nit picky things) but beyond that it's great. Demon2 works just as well as the latest S300 version.
Been distracted. The family thing. Keeps me occupied 24/7.

Yeah, I actually talked to them about trading in my Ostrich and Burn2 for a Demon / Neptune. But decided I want to keep them both in case I want to tune other cars or burn chips. I'm just going to start throwing some money aside and buy the Demon / Neptune combo. I've been doing a lot of research on which new direction to go in and Neptune is really winning as far as usability / simplicity. I also like the fact that they don't make you update your software if you don't want to. And their support seems really good.

I know the feeling. My CRX w/ TurboEdit will start leaning out at idle after like 30 minutes of driving. I’ve tried everything I can think of and it still happens. I bought new injectors, added tons of fuel to the map in the relevant cells, removed all compensations/corrections, and it still happens.

I even bought a new ECU to try to resolve this. Crossing my fingers that the new ECU fixes it but if not, I am going to follow your advice and try rebuilding the tune from a stock tune.
Late reply...but did you ever try this? I know exactly what you are talking about. Except my idle is now going super rich after driving for a while. Not just after warming up. After driving 10-15 miles or so. Same exact equipment as before. Same motor other than the intake mani / throttle body. It's locked at 14.7 ...and after I drive for a a while, it's sits back down at 13.5-13.6...No change in RPM. The tune is good, otherwise. I leaned out my idle on first start so it's closer to 14.7 after driving for a while.

Like I said, I only switched the intake mani and the throttle body. I basically swapped the stock Z6 throttle body for one without the FITV. It just has the coolant lines that run back to the IACV. Completely took cold start aggressiveness out of my idle.

So to sum it up - After re-tuning with the new intake mani, I'm having the same type of idle issue as you. Just going rich instead of lean.
 
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