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The other day I took my boosted d series to a shop to setup some aggressive 2 step, after 10 minutes of banging away I drove the car away on my way home and noticed it was running its usual 13 afr under extremely light throttle but as soon as I press any more it goes as high as 16 and I'm not talking about stepping on it I mean 40% throttle I found the next day that the manifold had multiple cracks so i promptly replaced it and its spooling better but still leans out the same even breaks up when I try to floor it I had injectors clean and everything I cant think of what it could be I'm about to get a retune but cant think of how 2 step would throw off my tune, my tune doesnt read off the o2 sensor I just have it to have an idea of what's going on with my car any help would be greatly appreciated car was running perfect before I got the 2 step set up

Wiseco pistons
Eagle rods
1000cc injectors
E85
320lph fuel pump
60 trim Garrett
15psi
 

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Discussion Starter #2
The other day I took my boosted d series to a shop to setup some aggressive 2 step, after 10 minutes of banging away I drove the car away on my way home and noticed it was running its usual 13 afr under extremely light throttle but as soon as I press any more it goes as high as 16 and I'm not talking about stepping on it I mean 40% throttle I found the next day that the manifold had multiple cracks so i promptly replaced it and its spooling better but still leans out the same even breaks up when I try to floor it I had injectors clean and everything I cant think of what it could be I'm about to get a retune but cant think of how 2 step would throw off my tune it cant be the map sensor and when I throw it in fifth and it goes in boost I can see the car trying to richen up but it only goes down to 13 as oppose to the usual 11 or 12, my tune doesnt read off the o2 sensor I just have it to have an idea of what's going on with my car any help would be greatly appreciated car was running perfect before I got the 2 step set up

Wiseco pistons
Eagle rods
1000cc injectors
E85
320lph fuel pump
60 trim Garrett
15psi

it cant be the map sensor and when I throw it in fifth and it goes in boost I can see the car trying to richen up but it only goes down to 13 as oppose to the usual 11 or 12
 

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Sloppy Jalopy
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did the shop change the tune for 2 step ,?
,can you load your old tune file ?before adding 2step
 

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Discussion Starter #4
did the shop change the tune for 2 step ,?
,can you load your old tune file ?before adding 2step
I was thinking the same thing although he said he hadn't changed the tune but had only added launch control for peace of mind he reuplouded the tune before we set up the launch control but it made no difference
 

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Sloppy Jalopy
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have you tested fuel pressure
you sure its going leaning? ,a misfire will usually show lean on the wideband...

could the dizzy be crapping out? spark tester..
 

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Discussion Starter #6
have you tested fuel pressure
you sure its going leaning? ,a misfire will usually show lean on the wideband...

could the dizzy be crapping out? spark tester..
Took it for a tune to see what it could be, we replaced spark plugs and wires and after 2 lean dyno pulls he pulled my injectors and said that they must've shrunk so now I'm getting new injectors apparently is there any logic to support this I thought if they where bad it would run really rich
 

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Meat Popsicle
91 CRX Si
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Injectors don’t shrink. You can usually see the injector duty cycle in the tuning software. If you’re not at or near 100% duty, you don’t need bigger injectors.

Have someone look at the fuel pressure gauge while you rev it up at idle to make sure there’s nothing funky going on.

Does adding fuel in the tune make any difference?

Maybe the launch control tuning caused the injectors to stick if you were bouncing off the rev limiter/fuel cut. I doubt this happened though as they usually stick open and flood the engine with fuel. This happened to me once on the dyno.

You could also have the injectors flow tested.

  • Check the fuel pressure regulator as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Injectors don’t shrink. You can usually see the injector duty cycle in the tuning software. If you’re not at or near 100% duty, you don’t need bigger injectors.

Have someone look at the fuel pressure gauge while you rev it up at idle to make sure there’s nothing funky going on.

Does adding fuel in the tune make any difference?

Maybe the launch control tuning caused the injectors to stick if you were bouncing off the rev limiter/fuel cut. I doubt this happened though as they usually stick open and flood the engine with fuel. This happened to me once on the dyno.

You could also have the injectors flow tested.

  • Check the fuel pressure regulator as well.
Thank you for the replay very informative, fuel pressure slightly rises when revved like normal adding fuel on the dyno made no difference I already bit the bullet and got a brand new set of ID 1000cc injectors after a flow test showed all injectors deviate from there "1000cc" capacity, after the install the car was running flawlessly under full throttle no more leaning out although my idle was super rich at like 8.09 which makes me think maybe those 1000cc I had where mocks or Chinese I had bought them second hand and they've held well for a year my tuner says its idling rich because of them being bigger than my knockoff injectors car now also breaks up under boost but I think it just needs a retune and thoughts?
 

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93 Civic HB SI
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I'm glad that you said replacing the injectors helped the WOT situation, but yes idle fuel will most likely need to be retuned. Replacing injectors are never a 1:1 thing, especially when going larger than stock :) There is almost always some new quirk to be found on a different set of injectors compared to another.

I'm not sure who your tuner is, but that whole 'injectors shrinking' thing sounds like I'd be shrinking my way to another tuner. It doesn't sound like he's doing his due diligence when it comes to diagnostics. I can think of about 40 things off the top of my head I would have done and tried before replacing injectors due to 2 lean pulls, especially since you said you had no issues prior to adding in 2 step. There would have had to be serious signs of it being injectors right off the bat to know that was the problem after only two pulls.

Even though you report things as fixed, or not lean during a pull, as a comfort check I would still go ahead and check fuel pressure, at idle, as well as what it reaches during a WOT snap, before heading back to the tuner. Report back with those numbers. Do you have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator? Brand? Is it a 1:1 rising rate in boost? Does the regulator itself have a pressure gauge or do you have one installed? Brand?

Those cheap ebay no name regulators are a serious craps shoot when it comes to getting a good one. Those gauges they come with are also off by 5-7PSI on their readings by default when compared to a really good quality gauge.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I'm glad that you said replacing the injectors helped the WOT situation, but yes idle fuel will most likely need to be retuned. Replacing injectors are never a 1:1 thing, especially when going larger than stock :) There is almost always some new quirk to be found on a different set of injectors compared to another.

I'm not sure who your tuner is, but that whole 'injectors shrinking' thing sounds like I'd be shrinking my way to another tuner. It doesn't sound like he's doing his due diligence when it comes to diagnostics. I can think of about 40 things off the top of my head I would have done and tried before replacing injectors due to 2 lean pulls, especially since you said you had no issues prior to adding in 2 step. There would have had to be serious signs of it being injectors right off the bat to know that was the problem after only two pulls.

Even though you report things as fixed, or not lean during a pull, as a comfort check I would still go ahead and check fuel pressure, at idle, as well as what it reaches during a WOT snap, before heading back to the tuner. Report back with those numbers. Do you have an adjustable fuel pressure regulator? Brand? Is it a 1:1 rising rate in boost? Does the regulator itself have a pressure gauge or do you have one installed? Brand?

Those cheap ebay no name regulators are a serious craps shoot when it comes to getting a good one. Those gauges they come with are also off by 5-7PSI on their readings by default when compared to a really good quality gauge.
Thank you for your reply, I may have miswrote something the car doesnt lean out any more at part throttle so I can go from 10% to 50% and it wont lean out but under full throttle once it hits peak boost it goes slightly lean as in 14afr vs before it would be around 11 the same tuner told me it needs a retune but I would think slightly larger injectors would make me run richer at WOT as for the Fpr I cant recall the brand as I am away from the car on a family vacation but the guage is on the fuel rail which is vms but I will report back immediately when I get the chance because my tune is next Thursday!!! And it would be a bummer to find out the issue was only partially fixed
 

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Yeah, in that case a retune sounds like it will remedy your lean WOT condition. Like I said before, no two injectors are alike :)

Your ECM was tuned to the 'kinda close 1000cc' knock off injectors initially, which is why these new ones are working for you having just installed them without doing anything else. It means that some part of your old injectors were close to what these new injectors are like. They just need to be driven a different way during higher RPM and load to get fuel back to normal.

Those VMS gauges, although not the most expensive things, are actually pretty good. I would trust its reading for baselining fuel pressure.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Yeah, in that case a retune sounds like it will remedy your lean WOT condition. Like I said before, no two injectors are alike :)

Your ECM was tuned to the 'kinda close 1000cc' knock off injectors initially, which is why these new ones are working for you having just installed them without doing anything else. It means that some part of your old injectors were close to what these new injectors are like. They just need to be driven a different way during higher RPM and load to get fuel back to normal.

Those VMS gauges, although not the most expensive things, are actually pretty good. I would trust its reading for baselining fuel pressure.
Sorry for the wait finally got done tuning, what a sad day car breaks up in boost and backfires like it's not getting g fuel we changed the pump we changed injectors we checked if the fpr was leaking (but did not replace) we changed coils and plugs but no dice car breaks up violently in boost fuel pressure is at 30psi at idle and when it cuts off it goes up to 40 and starts the break up dance no luck at all I'm losing patience but I'm not deterred I have an extra fuel pressure regulator that I might try replacing any thought?
 

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BATSLOMAN GIVES NO FUCKS.
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no mention of fuel filter

Ive read it should be between 36-40psi at idle....

clog somewhere, fuel line restriction, afr not reading correctly
 

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no mention of fuel filter

Ive read it should be between 36-40psi at idle....

clog somewhere, fuel line restriction, afr not reading correctly
We checked that as well no clogs there atleast and my tuner had that same concern so he added an external o2 sensor that he read from no matter how much fuel he added it cuts off at around vtec or when it makes full boost and wont go further almost like its hit the limiter
 

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Did he gap the plugs? Ignition components OK? (Plugs, wires, cap, rotor)

Plug gap shouldn't be stock, I personally run .017"

After the breaking up under load, did he pull plugs to inspect? You can learn a lot about what the car is doing just by looking at the plugs.

Also, have you done a compression test cold to make sure previously running it lean hasn't damaged anything in-cylinder?

What MAP sensor do you have?

Do you have logs from the pull you might be able to share? Has your tuner reviewed them next to the AFR data to look for anything out of the ordinary?

What engine management system are you running?

Do you know your base timing? Is it set correctly? Is this value properly set in your engine management?

Sorry man, breaking up under load can be caused by so many things, it's very difficult to know what might be wrong without checking/baselining a bunch of things all at the same time. It is especially hard to do when we aren't there :)

All we can do is offer things to check, but there might not be one thing in particular causing the issue if the relationships between all of the different systems and settings aren't also considered or understood while diagnosing.

Where are you located?? If you were close, you could come by and I would take a look.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Did he gap the plugs? Ignition components OK? (Plugs, wires, cap, rotor)

Plug gap shouldn't be stock, I personally run .017"

After the breaking up under load, did he pull plugs to inspect? You can learn a lot about what the car is doing just by looking at the plugs.

Also, have you done a compression test cold to make sure previously running it lean hasn't damaged anything in-cylinder?

What MAP sensor do you have?

Do you have logs from the pull you might be able to share? Has your tuner reviewed them next to the AFR data to look for anything out of the ordinary?

What engine management system are you running?

Do you know your base timing? Is it set correctly? Is this value properly set in your engine management?

Sorry man, breaking up under load can be caused by so many things, it's very difficult to know what might be wrong without checking/baselining a bunch of things all at the same time. It is especially hard to do when we aren't there :)

All we can do is offer things to check, but there might not be one thing in particular causing the issue if the relationships between all of the different systems and settings aren't also considered or understood while diagnosing.

Where are you located?? If you were close, you could come by and I would take a look.
Thank you for the very insightful reply, my tuner did take out my plugs and regap them for extra insurance he replaced and gapped a brand new set of plugs but it had no effect he also replaced my ignitor and cleaned the contacts to the plug wires to eliminate the possibility of it being an ignition related problem plugs always seemed to be on the rich side since he was adding so much to see why the car breaks up the way it does I've had a fuel line come loose and leak before the regulator and the violent flame shooting breakup is identical to the break up were having now but we put in a new walbro and 1600cc injectors just to rule them out only thing left is the regulator but it maintains vacuum.

Compression test was done warm all cylinders where good.

3 bar map sensor

I have a chipped p28 and it was tuned on chrome so I dont believe he logs

I would love to get a second opinion from another shop I am located in sunny isles florida thank you again for taking the time to respond to this issue that's been scratching many heads down here with the tuners of south florida.
 

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At this point if I was diagnosing it, I would break out the oscilloscope and scope the primary side of the ignition coil. The primary side waveform is an exact mirror image of the secondary waveform, only you are tied into a much lower voltage signal. The primary waveform while breaking up will show you what the secondary looks like during breakup.

If this happened to look odd or highly uneven/inconsistent from cylinder to cylinder, I would pull in TDC sensor signal to match the ignition events to a particular cylinder. Then run it again to the point of breakup, and see which cylinders are having the hardest time from a secondary perspective.

Remember, ignition components along with the in cylinder environment (lean, rich, timing, turbulence, preignition/detonation) can all affect what the ignition event waveform looks like. Analysis of this waveform can tell you if it might be physical ignition components causing the problem, or if it is more related to the in cylinder environment.

What does AFR look like during breakup?

What kind of external emulator is your tuner using, or do you have an onboard emulator like the Demon 2?

Have you tried reloading a stock base map and starting the tune over again?

Double and triple check physical mechanical timing?

Just for shits and giggles, is he tuning in lambda or AFR? I've seen people make the mistake of tuning in AFR and the fuel type is set incorrectly, then they are shooting for a totally off the charts AFR when compared to the actual fuel AFR.
 

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Also, you should be able to log with Crome if it is a pro or dealer license.

If he's not logging and looking over the logs, he really needs to. Logging offers a goldmine of diagnostic information, you almost can't diagnose drivability issues without some form of logging.

I'm also not in Florida, otherwise I would definitely try to help more :) I did used to live in Tampa area for a few years though, like 10 years ago
 
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