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You'd have to convince the dude installing CSS to leave the block guard in there, and press it down further, which is silly and would further distort and stress cylinders even more. The dude doing CSS would do you a favor and pull out the block guard and chuck it out a window.

With CSS, you dont need a generic block guard, CSS is already the ultimate custom fit block guard, and trying to stack the two in the cooling jacket would have one really far down the cylinder, where its not doing much of anything except getting in the way of coolant flow creating more hot spots and reducing overall cooling system capacity.

The CSS insert is machined and press fit into the top of the coolant pasaage, and is like an inch thick, right where the most cylinder pressure is made, and where the stock liners can use the most support to prevent bellmouthing.

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What would be the purpose of both? Are you planning to make more than the 600 whp that CSS rates their blocks too?

Block guards are mostly a waste of time at this point. Stock sleeves and CSS will handle 600whp. You want to make more than that, it's gonna take a ton of money and experience to get there.

Thinking outside the box is cool, just don't try to reinvent the wheel, unless you do, and then that would be cool.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
One would think the depth of a CSS has been engineered for temperature distribution and strength (I doubt auto manufactures would adopt the idea, maybe they have though?). When a CSS fails, how does it fail? Could increasing the depth of a cylinder support system have any benefit? Just past TDC, the detonation pressure is anywhere from 1000-1500 psi. The cylinder volume at TDC of d16 is 34.66 cc. After 1.5 inches of stroke, the volume of the cylinder increases to 167.1cc. Using Ideal gas law, where the temperature is 2500c, the pressure changes to 302.1 psi. Maybe an extra bit of beef could increase power potentiality, or like you said, create hot spots and further reduce coolant flow.

oops, I didn't account for volumetric temperature drop.
 

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93 4d lx, z6,ported, port matched, compression bumped, balanced, manual swap
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Having a block guard installed CORRECTLY by a machine shop that knows how will up reliability to about 350whp (assuming other supporting mods like forged rods/pistons, head studs, reciprocating assembly balance, ect), css will do 600 whp, and a quality sleeve system will push to 800 or so, going higher than 800? Going to take some custom cnc machine work, forget double stacking block gaurd and css, better ways to do it. Also forget that the chassis itself is going to need big money and lots of time to get it to not fold itself into a taco above 800whp, forget about hooking it up, just the torsional stress at that power level is going twist the chassis.
 

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93 4d lx, z6,ported, port matched, compression bumped, balanced, manual swap
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and maybe tapering the coolant passages so they increase in size as the coolant flows through the block
Custom machine work☝ I have prints for a finned sleeve design I havent had a reason to try out yet, increases surface area of the outer sleeve by 60%, outflows the b16 impeller by 15% at a .13 pressure differential(theoretically anyways) if you want to be the guinea pig and pay for a one off... last I checked 16k for the first one.
 

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When a CSS fails, how does it fail?
I dont really see how the CSS insert could fail. The cylinder liner would be the next most likely to fail by hairline cracking from micro-stresses, and could zipper rupture before the CSS insert could conceivably fail, which is typically what the limiting factor is when the CSS builders give a power rating to the finished CSS'd block assembly (OEM cylinder weakness below the CSS insert).

OEMs do adopt the idea of CSS, its called a closed deck. They will decide if a block needs an open or closed deck based on engineering requirements.

High power OEM applications typically use a closed deck design, which achieves the same overall goal of increasing upper cylinder support and strength, as CSS achieves for open deck blocks.
 

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BATSLOMAN GIVES NO FUCKS.
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all this effort and yet nobody has built a billet d motor lol
 
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How much power are you looking to make?? I’m known to overthink things, and these are interesting ideas. But isn’t this going to be your first build? When I started mine, sleeving the block was very far out of my consideration, because if I messed something up, atleast I wouldn’t have dumped all of that money into the block alone. It’s good to be ambitious, but you should work up to these kind of things... Maybe I’m just insecure about my level of skill and knowledge.

And then aside from building the D (or K?) you still need to have money for your turbo set up, engine management (stand alone or piggy back) and tune.

I don’t know what your background is in relation to working on cars, but again, if this is in fact your first build I would stick with the stock sleeves, D or K. Grow your skill set as you go.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Going to start with a 200hp build, even the top of the line 4 bangers only put out 400hp

Or even better than milling the water jacket, how about completely removing and inch or so of the water jacket, laying a second gasket and getting a custom sleeve that has a top of cylinder brim that spans out a couple of inches.
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View attachment 140075 Was also thinking that it might be possible to mill the coolant jacket to fit a thicker CSS. Maybe 1/8" to 1/4". Even thousandths of an inch might add additional hp capacity.
I mean, dude thats exactly what happens during the CSS process. That is basically what your paying for, machined precision fit to the insert:

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Going to start with a 200hp build, even the top of the line 4 bangers only put out 400hp

Or even better than milling the water jacket, how about completely removing and inch or so of the water jacket, laying a second gasket and getting a custom sleeve that has a top of cylinder brim that spans out a couple of inches. View attachment 140077
That would probably work, but the additional seal and leak points you'd be creating are most likely why this hasn't been done yet. KISS methodology was most likely employed to create the current CSS solution.

The outer block wall is also a serious source of strength, with all the ribbing and other design elements in place, and by sitting on top of that, no amount of dowels or tongue and groove would give you the same resistance to flexing or expansion movement compared to working with it.

Why not just create an insert shaped like that, but stays within the confines of the water jacket outside wall? You keep the outer wall strength, and remove additional leak points.

That taper wedge extending lower than the top of the cylinder is a good idea, but being unsupported laterally at the tip against the block with those fingers running down further looks like a prime candidate to turn into a tuning fork lol. 4 cylinder engines at high RPM create serious secondary imbalance harmonics generated by the rotating assembly, it vibrates A LOT. You would have to account for that in your design, to make sure harmonics couldn't wiggle the wedge and fingers around, causing it to crack or fracture.

Also, like Slo said, all of this is moot with billet block options if you've exceeded what is possible with traditional sleeving solutions out there.

The options out there are really good for the current market and general power goals:
  • Go CSS if you want more power than stock can take.
  • Go sleeves if you want more power than CSS can handle.
  • Go billet block if you've exceeded what sleeves can offer have way more money than sense, and shoot for the moon.

There is a reason no billet options exist for the D, the D is a terrible architecture to make seriously high power with, point blank, even if it had a billet block solution. The block is not really the limiting factor to a D making more power, bore, stroke, rod stroke ratios, and other things just stand in the way of achieving more efficiency.

Thats why billet B and K series exist, they make more power more efficiently, and are much better moon shot architectures.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I have prints for a finned sleeve design I havent had a reason to try out yet, increases surface area of the outer sleeve by 60%
So it resembles a heat sinc? cool idea! Coupling better conduction with a larger radiator might have some serious cooling, although, overheating is not common from what I've read.

maybe running your engine like this is.
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So it resembles a heat sinc? cool idea! Coupling better conduction with a larger radiator might have some serious cooling, although, overheating is not common from what I've read.

maybe running your engine like this is.
View attachment 140084

ITT, I get squashed by the engine nut giants.
Works as a heat sync and as cylinder wall strengthening, I designed it years ago for a friend that planned on 600whp awd endurance car running in a specific class, the idea was scrapped when we found the darton sleeve, that car is still running today, albeit down tuned to 430whp after he played with it a while at 600, the rest of the drive train simply wouldn't stay together under full power, so we backed it down until it stopped breaking something every time he hit full boost. The car never actually made it to any race track other than a drag strip or 3, that kind of power in a 2600lb car scares the :poop: out of most people.
 
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