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DD is the civic
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Discussion Starter #1
So here is where I am at...I have a 98 hatch and I had some grand plans to do a vitara build. That escalated very quickly to changing over to an all forged setup. I decided I wanted to be able to rev high, so that led to springs and retainers. I needed a cam to replace the garbage one that I had. That led to a Bisimoto cam. Sooo now that I have a complete engine on my stand, after $4500 of parts and machine work, I am starting to rethink things. Oh and I have a turbonetics 50 trim, EX tranny, MFactory LSD, etc. etc. all sitting in boxes.

I know this could be a really fun build and make great power, BUT I already have a 400WHP STI that is a lot of fun too. So what i am more focused on is a nice daily drivable car with around 180-200whp. So I keep thinking more and more about just doing a VERY basic turbo setup. Like a 14B or T25 with some 450CC injectors and a rising rate fuel regulator. Why a rising rate and NOT the Hondata S300 I already have? Simple, I live in NY and we get plugged in. I don't want to have a daily driver that each year I have to swap parts back onto in order to pass emissions.

So, does anyone have any real world experience with a setup similar to this? If so, how long did it last you? Yes, I know our rods are pencil-thin. What was the failure in your setup? Any input is appreciated. Thanks :)
 

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The problem with most rising rate fuel pressure regulators is that they do not start increasing fuel pressure until in boost, when in reality, the turbo is already flowing more mass air than the engine would be injesting naturally aspirated, even before you see pressure in the manifold. For this reason you get a lean transition, which is why they usually drive so poorly.
You mention the 450cc injectors, by which Im assuming you mean the AFC hack using a 3 bar MAP and 450s to theoretically offset each other. This sounds good on paper, in practice it is quite terrible.

Both of these things technically work, and its what people used to have to do, but the modern alternative is so much better that its not even funny. There is really no excuse. Even at low power levels it is many times more dangerous due to the sheer unpredictability and lack of control.

Since youre stuck with OBD-II in your state, I would sell off that overpriced s300 and pt that money towards some sort of piggyback or something.
I could tell you other cheaper ways to make it work but they are not for the feint of heart.
 

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DD is the civic
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Discussion Starter #4
Full Tilt: What would the modern alternative be IF I want to stick with an OBD II ecu? Is there something I am overlooking? I know I could do an SAFC or AEM...but like I said, I am not looking to make crazy power so I was looking for more of a budget build in this sense. I realize the dangers with the RR FPR but didn't know if anyone had any idea as to about how long before it starts to be detrimental.

Like I said, I more or less have about $7-8k in parts sitting in boxes and on an engine stand...I just have to scale back my goals as I'm not looking to make a track car anymore.
 

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Before we get into all that, are you using stock rods? because thats silly.

I think if I were you, I would keep the cam stock, or near stock, one that will run on the obd-II ecu. Then when going for emissions testing, just take the chipped ecu out and put the obd-II ecu back in, and take the spring out of the wastegate to keep it out of boost. If the head is stock, it should run pretty much still like stock. Youll just have to make provisions to keep things like the stock narrowband o2 sensor and such.
It would be a little bit of work each time you had to go get testes, but this is still the easy way.

The other alternative is to piggyback the stock ECU along with a standalone, like a megasquirt, or possible an obd-I honda ecu. Leaving the stock obd-II ecu in place so that it reading sensors and thinks its running the car, but in reality its injector and ignitor outputs are not connected to anything.
This would require you understanding how engine management works and having a very good understanding of the honda harness. You would be completely on your own as very few, if any people have done this. I could do this, most people couldnt even begin to try. So Im not really even suggesting it.
 

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DD is the civic
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Discussion Starter #6
I might have accidentally confused you...I have the built D16Z6 sitting on my engine stand...that I will likely be selling (once I can actually get on the classifieds forum that is lol) and then I have the regular old D16Y7 in my car which I could do a mini-me swap on but for the sake of this conversation, THAT would be the engine I was talking about plopping a small turbo on. It looks like the RR FPR won't be a good idea to use even for that though. Oh well :/
 

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ej8
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Just no. No no no...

Why would you run a flu with 450cc injector? So you can flood the motor with fuel?
The best thing for you to do is use that chipped ecu. Then when emission comes around swap out injectors and open the waste gate. Or just get a piggyback to control the injectors for emission time.

Other then that your jus t playing roulette with 5 bullets in the chamber.
 

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The Wife and the Car
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Let me play the Devils advocate here.
We pulled 200 BHP out of a 8 valve suzuki 1.3 with carbs and a turbo.

With nothing more than a Fuel Pressure reg.
The only diff here and my first setup is that translation from NA to boost.
The carb seemed to handle it quite well. Agreed the there are some tricks we needed to play with to get it to work i.e. the circuit that squirts extra gas in every time you get on the gas had to be tweaked. So you could fix that transalation problem from NA to boost if you really wanted to.

Other that that Id say listen to the guys who have responded to your post. They know what they are talking about.

I spent a good part of my life. Doing stuff people said couldn't be done or shouldn't be done. On reflection I should have listened to them in the first place.
 

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DD is the civic
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Discussion Starter #9
I appreciate everyone's feedback. Yes, I KNOW the RR FPR is not an IDEAL setup, I just didn't know if anyone had ACTUALLY used it. I just hate how bassakwards everything has to be in order to make a few extra HP. I'd rather use a piggyback than have to swap parts for emissions time. But once again, this isn't for a built engine or anything like that. Eh...we'll see. Thanks again though :)
 

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93 DelSol S, 95 DelSol Si, 01 Odyssey EX, 04 CRV EX
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If your sake of using it for emissions is really the true intent, I'll point something out.

Your engine will not run clean with the current suggest configuration. Your catalyst would die a horrible death. That coupled with the emissions the setup would produce with either increased or unchanged base timing, would be insane. Don't even get me started on fuel fluctuations with 450's and battery voltage.... You need to read up on this.

It is far simpler to run a tuned map until smog then it's as simple as disabling or removing the turbo, swap injectors, and plug in an ecu to make the car run proper; then to have to replace a catalyst and have any issues with the engine or ability to run stoich in the changed state, because close loop compensations the ecu will use are for 240cc injectors.
 

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93 DelSol S, 95 DelSol Si, 01 Odyssey EX, 04 CRV EX
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Side note:

I used to perform vehicle smog checks in Ca, we got some fucked up requirements. I know the pain of the consumer.
 
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