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Formerly weebeastie
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It's gonna be so much happier with less timing. As will you lol.

The SRT-4's are actually mostly B16 studs (same everything), in fact the SRT-4's were an old way to get studs for a DOHC ZC as they are 11mm, and the SRT-4's were a perfect fit. They now relabel them as ZC parts, but still the same parts.

Would love to look through those logs. As I'm sure Robgoof will as well. He's a bit of a tuner himself :)

And please, I hope there was no disparaging thoughts towards my last post. JD is the man, and if it didn't push there, it didn't. Could be barometric pressure changes, or heat cycles that caused the issues, or it just got pissy.

I meant to ask if you're getting any traction with this beast?
 

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93 Civic HB SI
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Discussion Starter #402
Damn, looks like I'll have to email/host the CSVs to share, can't attach as it's not a supported file type. But here are some screenshots that pull the important data out:

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All Excel tables show snippets of the highest load cell areas the car saw during the highest periods of boost in each situation. The green table was from my test drive with boost and timing removed yesterday. The yellow table was the 93 tune that made 310whp. The red table is the E85 tune that made the 370whp. I created averages between the Table vs Actual ignition values for each datalog session, as well as the difference in timing for both the yellow and red datalogs to the green one, showing the Actual timing advance differential between all of them. You can see how much I ended up pulling out of the green one for yesteday, almost 10 degrees.

The MAP pressure readings are in mBar which show MAPActual instead of MAPGauge, so convert mBar values to PSI using Google, take that value and subtract 14.7 from it to find the final PSI the MAP sensor saw.

The reason for the difference between Table vs Actual Ignition correction comes from only this modifier, RPM Based Ignition Adjustment, as almost all other Ignition modifiers are zeroed or applying a very slight retard. You can see ignition advance being applied here as part of a trim to the overall final ignition value, with this being the primary source of the significant timing advance between Table vs Actual ignition values in the above CSV snippets:

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This is the Sensor Correction window attached to the Flex Fuel sensor converter box. This is where trim across Fuel, Ignition and PWM for the boost solenoid is trimmed depending on Ethanol content. I zeroed all areas boxed in red for the test drive yesterday:

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Timing Tables (mostly showing the boost columns, tiny bit of vacuum as well):

Low Cam:

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High Cam:

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As you can see, Actual timing during my test drive (green Excel table) isn't that significant after pulling all timing out of the modifiers. It honestly does feel really good here.
 

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93 Civic HB SI
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Discussion Starter #403
I meant to ask if you're getting any traction with this beast?
With these tires, traction for days. I haven't spun tires once with the Federals on there, its all pull under WOT. I spun the All Seasons on the gold rims on my pre-dyno street tune lol, these Federals when warm hook very well.
 

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Formerly weebeastie
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And just a question: Even if the AFR numbers are corrected for E85 because it would read like 7.5-7.8:1 if not, isn't this a bit on the lean side? 13:1 in boost at 7500 rpms? Those numbers would slightly frighten me. But that's just me. I realize, crazy things are done to make power, but what are your AFR's at now that you've pulled timing? What is your Target AFR in boost?
 

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Discussion Starter #405
And just a question: Even if the AFR numbers are corrected for E85 because it would read like 7.5-7.8:1 if not, isn't this a bit on the lean side? 13:1 in boost at 7500 rpms? Those numbers would slightly frighten me. But that's just me. I realize, crazy things are done to make power, but what are your AFR's at now that you've pulled timing? What is your Target AFR in boost?
JD did say that my wideband read about 1 AFR ratio point higher than his, he tuned my AFR using his wideband exclusively. Said it might get better if I change the controller ground to tie directly to a battery ground instead of through the dash harness. So when you see 13:1 its really around 12:1. AFRs on his playback with his equipment were rock solid and flat every single pull, at roughly 12:1. He spent a lot of time getting it fuelled correctly, he was very methodic about that and knew exactly what to change to meet his targets.

You are correct about the E AFR looking weird. Even though the scale is currently set to gasoline stoich AFR values, remember that wideband sensors are really lambda sensors, they don't care about fuel ratios, they only care about oxygen present after a burn. 14.7:1 is equal to lambda 1 for gasoline, yet the same lambda scale is simply interpolated for Ethanol so that lambda 1 still equates to the stoich representation for Ethanol. See below:

Screenshot_20200504-234656_Chrome.jpg



Even though I'm burning E, lambda 1 is still lambda 1 no matter what, so 14.7 is just an indicator of what lambda 1 would be for Ethanol or pump gas. You can see that 14.7 for pump gas still falls on the lambda 1 column in the same way that 9:1 for Ethanol does. The sensor output voltage curve only follows the lambda representation, it never changes for the fuel type, only the interpolated AFR scales across the lambda range per fuel type do.

Displaying AFR while using wideband sensors is actually a crappy way to interpret air fuel ratio, since displaying the raw lambda value works for any type of combustible fuel in an engine. Once you get used to tuning in lambda, you never need to guess or know what your stoich AFR value is ever again, for any kind of fuel, and you'll always know which side of 1 is rich or lean.
 

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Discussion Starter #408
I'm taking it to work today. Gotta go in for something, been out working from home for almost 2 months now, it's gonna be weird!

I pulled 1 more degree out of both low and high cam maps in boost, and will see how that feels today.
 

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Discussion Starter #410
Went on a longer slightly harder run with more timing pulled out of it, on 15 pounds of boost, still pushing coolant. Not explosively as I said before, but the reservoir does fill all the way up.

Take more timing out of it? It seems little extreme to be approaching the 10 and unders in terms of advance under boost, but I'll give it a shot and see what happens. I'll pull 2 degrees the next time, and reset the coolant reservoir level.
 

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Formerly weebeastie
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10 isn't excessive with a boosted D. A B16/B18, yes, excessive, but not a D. And the damage may already be done. I forget, Felpro or Cometic gasket?

Sometimes the Cometics are finicky as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #412
10 isn't excessive with a boosted D. A B16/B18, yes, excessive, but not a D. And the damage may already be done. I forget, Felpro or Cometic gasket?

Sometimes the Cometics are finicky as well.
I realize my term of "extreme" could have been taken the wrong way, but I think we are on the same page lol, just want to clarify though!

When I said extreme, I meant extreme as in extreme low end of timing advance. Was this how you interpreted it as well when you its not excessive for a D but would be for a B (in terms of the low amount of advance)?

Does all this pull in timing honestly have to do with our 75mm bores/pistons not offering the surface area to efficiently transfer the cylinder pressures created down the rod to the crank?

JD said something similar, but holy crap this is putting max cylinder pressures quite a ways after TDC.

I can definitely visualize the head lift occurring if the fire is lit too early given the engine size constraints and cylinder head construction. It doesn't help that D's have less meat in the cylinder head to prevent against flexing/deformity under pressure compared to the B series engines. I just measured and the B series heads have about another inch of aluminum thickness in comparison to the D to resist the ballooning that occurs in the head during lift. Saw this cool image from a Fel Pro write up showing what head lift looks like from all their R&D efforts:

Screenshot_20200505-215030_Chrome.jpg



Here's the link to the article as well:


I honestly think I'm gonna end up pulling the head to replace the gasket. I pray the block is still flat lol, but will sent head to get checked/milled to be safe. I'm still going to experiment with the timing pull and resetting the coolant level, to see how much I might be able to remedy it just with timing. I haven't honestly via butt dyno noticed a big drop in power with that 1 degree pulled, still scary as hell when under WOT in 3rd lol. Its hard to keep the front end pointed straight with how well the tires hook, LSD definitely does its job as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #413 (Edited)
And yes, I have a Cometic in there now. I bought a JE pro seal cause I found them for a decent sale price on Real Street last week, feeling I would most likely replace the gasket at some point anyways.

My experience with MLS gaskets that show signs of head lift and blow by, is once the Viton coating is shredded by the blow by gasses, the effectiveness of the metal spring embossments is seriously reduced. That Viton coating is an important part of the fire ring embossment seal. But we will see how it might remedy itself with timing further retarded.

This is honestly fun, I like figuring out shortcomings like this, and thinking/coming up with solutions to fix them!

With the platform in the car, replacing the head gasket and getting the head resurfaced is nothing compared to what has gone in to this car, so I'm not quite giving up on the D yet. I just hope to one day, somehow, get this engine to sustain roughly 300 butt dyno hp for a long period of time!
 

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Sloppy Jalopy
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is that 300 crank or wheel butt hp?

my 7.5:1 y8 with water/meth was so much no timing but made power to spin all seasons through 3rd with just pedal mash ,,
but also used a z6 timing gear ..so null..
 

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Discussion Starter #415
is that 300 crank or wheel butt hp?

my 7.5:1 y8 with water/meth was so much no timing but made power to spin all seasons through 3rd with just pedal mash ,,
but also used a z6 timing gear ..so null..
Hmm, probably butt wheel hp..

So much no timing? Lol, what kind of numbers did you work with?
 

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if less retarded it felt like a power loss plugs would also start to have slight pepper ..used detcans almost every time I drove during the summer,,
when the water solenoid took a shit it popped the head gasket like right away also no mistaking really saltnpepper plugs ..
136385
 

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Discussion Starter #417
if less retarded it felt like a power loss plugs would also start to have slight pepper ..used detcans almost every time I drove during the summer,,
when the water solenoid took a shit it popped the head gasket like right away also no mistaking really saltnpepper plugs ..
View attachment 136385
Is that for your Y7? Our tables from about 4 grand to redline are pretty similar (4 to redline in my high cam map) around 15-16psi. What is actual/final timing vs table timing when in the higher load cell ranges? Got any logs you could payback to see? I'm curious what your actual looks like. With our tables being so similar, I'm curious if any of your other timing modifiers are advancing/retarding more than mine are.

You've got me curious now! I'm gonna try pulling another 2 degrees out and see what happens, and hopefully get a chance to test drive maybe tonight.

What boost pressure did you run on that map?
 

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that is from last summers y7 block y8 head locked vtec std length rods vitaras td04hl-19t water inj 91 octane .
was at 22-24 for a good 4000km of beat the fuck out of it..
with modifiers it usually ended up 1 to 1.5* more than the map.
will have to find some logs ..
 

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Formerly weebeastie
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Yes, excessively low. For a B series it would be excessively low, but not for a D. In fact 10 table might've been a good starting point. I'll have to look at my current BIN to see where I'm at with it. Around 11 I think.

And yes, the tiny pistons create a ton of pressure. Reasons they pop so easy if you're not careful.

I like the idea of the different/new head gasket.
 

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Discussion Starter #420
Yes, excessively low. For a B series it would be excessively low, but not for a D. In fact 10 table might've been a good starting point. I'll have to look at my current BIN to see where I'm at with it. Around 11 I think.

And yes, the tiny pistons create a ton of pressure. Reasons they pop so easy if you're not careful.

I like the idea of the different/new head gasket.
If you could post a pic like Rob did, that would be awesome, possibly some data log info with table vs actual timing, since actual is almost never Iike table due to coil dwell adjustments. I just want to make sure my advance spread from onset of boost to max boost across the table is similar to you guys, cause neither of you seem to be popping HGs all the time. It will give me an area to play in and see what feels good.

I also understand that our turbo sizes are all different, Robs is a TD04, yours is a GT28 I think? I've got a GT32, so we are all flowing different amounts of CFM at matching boost levels. I wonder if this can contribute to higher cylinder pressures? Getting more air in there causes the dynamic compression ratio to increase no?

I think my last street pulls were around 16 pounds and roughly 12.75 degrees actual near redline, but it still pulls like an SOB, so im sure I could probably come down a bit.

I've just never played with an engine that used such low timing advance and still seemed to make decent power. Kinda wish I had an EGT sensor in the turbo outlet to see what it gets to with different settings. I'm not exactly sure at what level of retard I need to worry about burning an exhaust valve up.
 
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