Honda D Series Forum banner

281 - 300 of 490 Posts

·
Registered
93 Civic HB SI
Joined
·
769 Posts
Discussion Starter #283
Next stages are:
  1. Timesert the block
  2. Drill head passthrough holes open, and make sure head fits over new studs
  3. Lightly build head with false valve springs to clay combustion chamber, determine HG thickness
  4. Send block out for o-ring service
  5. Get intake manifold all buttoned up, including building an IAT flange, mounting fuel rail and installing injectors.
 

·
Registered
Sloppy Jalopy
Joined
·
1,303 Posts
damn that's hot! haha.

gonna make the other pistons jealous !

will be thinking over your offer while I break the new build..
 

·
Registered
93 Civic HB SI
Joined
·
769 Posts
Discussion Starter #285
I just attempted the first TimeSert insert install, just to see how long things will take. Took 30 mins the first pass, but now that I have a feel for the process, should be between 20-30 mins per insert.

This thing is going to be one hell of an engine when reassembled, I'm so looking forward to it!
 

·
Registered
93 Civic HB SI
Joined
·
769 Posts
Discussion Starter #287 (Edited)
How much boost are you planning to send through it? Think O-ringing is absolutely necessary?
Honestly, I have no idea lmao :) Enough boost to hit my power level target. With the cam and port work I've done so far, I figure these probably add roughly 60HP to the previous engine iteration as just simple bolt ons, so I estimate this engine should be at 300-310whp at 15psi. So maybe roughly in the area of 20-22 psi to hit my target?

The o-ring procedure only costs about 100 bucks plus a small roll of stainless wire, and the copper head gasket isnt but like $10 more than the Cometic I was going to purchase, so to get this all done and be big studded, being able to reliably play at 350-375whp is a solid reality and one I'm looking forward to.

The most expensive part of any of this was getting all the stuff to go bigger studs, but oh man are these TimeSerts nice. Such a clean process and highly improved stud threads put back into the block. I wish I would have just broken down last year and purchased this kit and gone big stud on my previous block. Could have saved almost 300 bucks at this point.

The next things to break after this at that power level are axles, trans and possibly some kind of spun bearing due to it being a Y8 bottom end. But I hope to play with it at that power level for a while before any of those take a crap.

If axles die, no big deal, 50 bucks a side and autozone lifetime warranty lol.

If trans dies, I have an excuse to put this GSR trans in and do a plateless D to B swap.

If bearing spins, I'll shelve the D series hard parts until I can pick up and fund a Z6 bottom end build in the same way I did the Y8, then in meantime go ahead and build my B series refreshed stock with ARPs, LSD and trans rebuild set for the GSR trans, buy a turbo manifold and do some light fab work, and street tune that bad boy making probably the same 375-400 right out of the gate on wastegate pressure haha.
 

·
Registered
93 Civic HB SI
Joined
·
769 Posts
Discussion Starter #288
Just thinking about this build so far, I really honestly need to do a parts breakdown and price list, because I lost track of how much freaking money I've put into this car so far... its probably terribly high.

But I've gone to a point where it would be stupid to stop moving forward with it, because it just sitting there in my driveway doing nothing means it cost a lot of money to build something that in the end can't run. I refuse to accept that haha, so forward we go!

Unless I die from coronavirus, then I would like to donate it to someone at this site, because anyone in my family would look at my car after I'm gone and go "what a piece of shit car, why did he spend so much time on this? Send it to the junkyard...". They'd have no idea what they were looking at lol.
 

·
Formerly weebeastie
Joined
·
1,057 Posts
No doubt, don't let the Corona get you......... Have you upgraded the oil pump? Self ported or even Bad Guys offers a new high volume oil pump. Been thinking about getting one of theirs for the ZC. When its hot and idling, it gets a little low for my liking. Anything below 10 at hot idle frightens me.
 

·
Registered
93 Civic HB SI
Joined
·
769 Posts
Discussion Starter #292
No doubt, don't let the Corona get you......... Have you upgraded the oil pump? Self ported or even Bad Guys offers a new high volume oil pump. Been thinking about getting one of theirs for the ZC. When its hot and idling, it gets a little low for my liking. Anything below 10 at hot idle frightens me.
I lightly ported mine and smoothed the transition at the pump exit. I was getting similar hot pressure numbers, last engine iteration ran around 12-15 hot with 5W40 Rotella T6, until I installed the oil cooler. I saw significant pressure increases at both idle and cruise.

Mind you I'm not entirely sure if this is due to the added plumbing that goes along with the cooler and the pump needing to simply pump harder, because I did notice last year when I pulled the engine after the dyno that the sending unit for the gauge was actually plumbed into the oil circuit BEFORE the cooler, so I'm changing things around this year and plumbing it in AFTER the cooler. This arrangement will also send cooled oil to the turbo, whereas before the turbo was the first item that got oil from the pump. I highly doubt 10AN lines through a parallel flow cooler would magically generate a restriction enough to cause 10-15+ PSI increase with hot 5W40, but I could be wrong. We will see this year!
 

·
Registered
93 Civic HB SI
Joined
·
769 Posts
Discussion Starter #293 (Edited)
So today I got some crappy, although not terrible news (all things considered). More on that in a minute.

Last night, I roughly assembled the bottom end and head with false valve springs to be able to inspect the combustion chamber clearances:






Pistons sit 0.065" below deck height, so my comp ratio is barely going to be 8:1, but still in the 8's so I'm not too bummed about that:








All measuring was done using an already used and crushed Fel-Pro HG which is 0.027" thick:




False valve springs just to be able to get the cam and rockers doing their thing:






Installed the Colt stick and rocker assembly all lubed up with assembly lube, and indexed the GE cam gear to the stock Y8 gear. According to the keyway positions and the head alignment marks on the gears, the GE gear set to 0° was actually 1 degree retarded from the stock gear position. Knowing that my head has been shaved twice (first time it took 0.004" to get flat, second time after blowing engine up took 0.008" to get flat), and this block once (took 0.004" off to cut the deck surface and the CSS insert flat), I went ahead and set the GE gear to 1.5° advanced to get the cam to be roughly in as close to stock position as possible:








Setting the valve lash to 0 and turning the crank with everything in time, the valves have absolutely nothing to worry about in terms of piston clearance. There is like a good 1/2" clearance between them wide open and the piston no matter the position, so valve clearance is not an issue and there is plenty of room to spare.

Quench distance is pitiful, mind you there isn't much due to these pistons having a large dish and the combustion chamber being pentagonal shaped, but the gap between the highest part of the piston near the edge and the nearest beginning part of the cylinder dome shape is 0.185". So clearance is a non-issue in this engine and is not even worth claying anything because I can see every important gap using a borescope through the missing valve ports:




But with quench being so large, I'm gunning for the Tri-Flow cam design and boost in general to provide a good swirl effect into the cylinder. With the advertised swirl characteristics of this camshaft, I don't feel I will have to worry too much about detonation when flooring it out of boost, so I hope I can put some decent down low timing into it so it's not a total dog out of boost. And with the eventual dynamic compression ratio being high when in boost, I should have a decent setup to play with in terms of messing with timing in boost ranges on E85.
 

·
Registered
93 Civic HB SI
Joined
·
769 Posts
Discussion Starter #294
Now the crappy (not bad, just disappointing) news.

I am still planning on getting this block o-ringed. After getting my measurements and doing clearance inspection last night, I went to SCE Gaskets website to purchase the head gasket. I opted for their thinnest gasket (0.021") because I have all the room in the world in terms of in cylinder clearances, so this was a last ditch effort to bump static comp ratio a bit!

During the checkout process, it appeared that any gasket I tried to put in the cart in their webstore didn't do anything.

I searched most of Google, and could not find ANY trace of this gasket being available anywhere. I could find distributors that listed them, but no stock and a note saying 4-6 weeks estimated delivery. Maybe people don't o-ring their D-Series all that often? lol.

I sent SCE sales an email, trying to see what was up, and if I could go ahead and place an over the phone order for copper head gasket Part Number SCE-P91362.

The sales member got back to me this morning, and said the P/N was changed to P913621 lol (added a 1). When he looked at inventory, nothing existed. He was like "You know, we've never sold a lot of these gaskets. In fact, we stopped all of this engine's gasket production because of no demand. They are now a custom order item, but we do still offer it."

Well shit. Typically this is where I would say f*** it and just settle with a big studded block and a traditional MLS gasket from Cometic or something.

BUT then the sales guy said the following:
  1. "We can make you one, but we are currently in the midst of a company wide move to Tennessee right now. Gaskets are still getting made, but at a reduced capacity from normal due to the relocation inconveniences and any related coronavirus effects."
  2. "Also, we don't deal directly with customers anymore and are in the process of toning down our website to remove the ordering function. The catalog will still be available though. We are wanting customers to go through our resellers and distributors instead. For import cars, try Real Street in Florida. These guys have by far the best customer service and we sell to them a lot. They should be able to help you out."
  3. "One more thing, because of the company move and the fact that we have no inventory on this gasket, just be aware that if you do place an order through a distributor, you will likely see a 6-7 week turnaround time from the point of order."
F***in A. Do I go regular Cometic or similar? Or do I suck it up and wait the 6-7 weeks?

I called Real Street and told a sales guy what was going on. Gave them the SCE part number, sure enough, was in the catalog but no stock. The sales guy I talked to was really cool, knowledgeable and assured me they do deal with SCE all the time for head gaskets on other engines. He said he could go ahead and place the order if I wanted.

On SCE's website, the 0.021" gasket listed for $105.00. Through Real Street, they offered them for $42! Plus shipping, it was going to be like $56 dollars. Because of this newfound cheap price, I asked him how much 3 gaskets would be, because if for some reason I did blow one of these gaskets or damaged it somehow (you never know), that would mean I would have to wait another 6-7 weeks for another one? Hell no, I'm applying some CYA cream here.

He said if I ordered 4, I would get a discount due to a sale they were having AND free shipping. So the total for 4 of these gaskets was $155.00.

I did it, I jumped on it.

4 of these gaskets are in the process of getting made, somewhere, magically in cyberspace.

I would like to keep two for myself, one to use with this engine and another as backup. But I won't hog the remaining national supply haha. If anyone is interested in o-ringing their D-Series needing a copper gasket, let me know and I will likely sell you one of the extras I'm buying.
 

·
Registered
93 Civic HB SI
Joined
·
769 Posts
Discussion Starter #295
OMG I'm going to pull my hair out haha! It's already starting to fall out due to age!

Guess WTF just happened?

I brought my block to the speed shop that said they would cut my o-ring grooves in my block, turns out the circular bit with the adjustable carbide tip they use on their CNC machine for cutting the grooves in a perfect circle doesn't go down smaller than 3.75", because they only really work on larger V8's

Guess who's honda engine needs roughly 3.180" grooves? ALL OF OURS haha.

kelso-burn.gif


I told them on the phone initially during our conversation that it was a Honda engine with 75.5mm bores, I guess their internal metric to standard calculator failed lol.

I sat with them for an hour while the guy was kind enough to call all of his contacts in the area that cut grooves in blocks and heads for this kind of stuff, NO ONE has the tooling small enough to cut my grooves within a 100 mile radius. They all either cut o-rings for larger diesel performance engines or big bore V8's.

I'm fucking tired of it. I've gone CSS and big stud, I'm just gonna suck it up and buy a thin Cometic and be done and throw this thing back together. I'm tired of waiting, and I honestly don't think I'll have too much of an issue throwing the boost to it with conservative timing to get near the 350-375whp mark.

I'm burnt out with all this researching, driving, waiting, paying for things, getting hopes up, asking for refunds, etc. haha.
 

·
BATSLOMAN GIVES NO FUCKS.
Joined
·
4,472 Posts

·
Registered
93 Civic HB SI
Joined
·
769 Posts
Discussion Starter #298

20:40 into the video. they have a ring cutter that expands into the bore.....I have zero info where they got it...... but its an idea for you



my google-fu


Isky Engine Block O-Ringing Tools 200-GRM
The Isky Cams Groove-o-Matic oringing tool. Works great, if only they fucking made one for smaller than 3" bores lol. 3 1/8" is as small as they go, I've investigated lmao. This tool would be slick if it would have worked in my bore, it would be in my checkout cart right now lol.
 

·
BATSLOMAN GIVES NO FUCKS.
Joined
·
4,472 Posts
but...... what if you could use a piston to center a cutter and make your own?

I mean, in theory it shouldn't be too hard right? drill a hole in the center of a piston (possibly wrap the piston in painters tape to take up the space) and use a hole saw to gentle nibble away at the surface creating a groove..... could do it by hand and take your time
 

·
Registered
93 Civic HB SI
Joined
·
769 Posts
Discussion Starter #300
but...... what if you could use a piston to center a cutter and make your own?

I mean, in theory it shouldn't be too hard right? drill a hole in the center of a piston (possibly wrap the piston in painters tape to take up the space) and use a hole saw to gentle nibble away at the surface creating a groove..... could do it by hand and take your time
Hmm.... damn it Slo! Lmao, don't even get me thinking. It is a good idea though.

No... I don't want to even think about rigging a $330 dollar tool, or even doing the slick hole saw method you suggested haha. This o-ring service was supposed to be $100 dollars, and a hand off to someone else experienced with o-ringing and the CNC tooling so that I didn't have to dick with it. The method you suggested, while definitely possible in theory would probably end up with me spending $600 trying to rig something to work right, AND I fuck up my block in the process haha. I've got too much money in this block right now to be homebrewing anything critical on it lol. The width and depth of the groove is critical, and relates to head gasket thickness and the stainless o-ring wire diameter you put in the groove. I can definitely see myself fucking up when things rely on a tolerance of 0.002" to get right.

I did go on Cometic's website a while ago and sent their technical staff an email. They showcase this technology on their site called MLX (Multi-Layer-Steel-Stopper), and I inquired about it. They offer it for the D-Series engines, but in a 79mm bore. There's no way. But, knowing Cometic, they build their stuff to order and can do custom work.

Here's a clip from news article. A Cometic spokesperson at SEMA explaining MLX tech:

“We’ve really been focusing on the MLX gaskets, because of all of the engines that we make gaskets for, everything is a high-performance application,” says Cometic’s Kevyn Kistner. “With the Stopper gasket, the center layer is folded over back onto itself — this creates an additional stack-up right at the bore, and once you tighten everything down, it focuses more clamp-load from the bolts to the bore. That’s really where the pressure is.”

Cometic has put this design into use in their Subaru, GM LS and conventional small-block Chevrolet, and late-model Hemi engine offerings, among others.

“For anyone out there making serious horsepower, we have an application of that Stopper design,” says Kistner. “We’ve had great results with this, and guys are holding big horsepower with them. Years ago, you had to go with copper and O-ring on everything with big power numbers, but we’ve finally been able to create a product line that totally antiques that old setup.”

So I inquired to see if their typical 76mm bore gasket design for the Z6/Y8 engines could be a candidate for putting through the MLX process. If so, then I'll buy one of these. If not, I'm just gonna order their Y8 MLS in 0.018" and call this engine built.
 
281 - 300 of 490 Posts
Top