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Discussion Starter #1
Hey I got the 1-3-5 Gear-X from KIWI on OCO.

Got Bearings, Seals, Carbon Synchros, Friction Dampers, New Mainshaft washers and CS nut and washer MF Helical LSD 4.25 FD.

It is a P20 B000 95 EX.

120 WHP NA for now. Will be boosted again sometime.

Going to Scuff the cones and check the synchro clearance and clearance at the shift forks, and check the shim clearance.

Both Kiwi and Dave and James at Synchrotech says there is no mod to use the 3rd as 4th. And the only mod needed is to clearance the case for the gears.

Now

1. What do YOU recommend for gear scuffing and your method is?

2. Does the hub or collar go upside down when using 3rd as 4th?

3. What clearance should I be shooting for with the shims?

4. Anything else?
 

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Hey I got the 1-3-5 Gear-X from KIWI on OCO.

Got Bearings, Seals, Carbon Synchros, Friction Dampers, New Mainshaft washers and CS nut and washer MF Helical LSD 4.25 FD.

It is a P20 B000 95 EX.

120 WHP NA for now. Will be boosted again sometime.

Going to Scuff the cones and check the synchro clearance and clearance at the shift forks, and check the shim clearance.

Both Kiwi and Dave and James at Synchrotech says there is no mod to use the 3rd as 4th. And the only mod needed is to clearance the case for the gears.

Now

1. What do YOU recommend for gear scuffing and your method is?

2. Does the hub or collar go upside down when using 3rd as 4th?

3. What clearance should I be shooting for with the shims?

4. Anything else?
1) 120 grit flapper wheel
2) depends on gears being used
3) OEM
4) You will learn to understand Chris/Aquaifina's and my vague posts, and ways of building. I bet either of us could have provided a proven product for less overall money than you will have spent without any questions asked.

Oh yeah, I hope you know about the 1st gear Gear-X issue that has never been spoken about on here, Jeff likely has fixed it as I likely have an early production unit and know how to fix the issue.

Have fun!
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
I enjoy working on my car... Half the fun in all this is putting it together and learning stuff. I know I'm not the fastest/best/cheapest.

AnyWay, I have read Aquafina saying he shims the case according to the type of use, leading me to assume larger or smaller clearances may be beneficial in some situations. Wondering what those were. More slop for drag high hp and less for AutoX low hp?

Well for this application, what orientation should the hub/sleeve go on? As the FSM says or reverse?

"You should not have to make any modifications to the gears themselves- The first gear does come with a 1mm spacer that must be used on the '92+ Hydraulic clutch transmission. I have never heard of any other mods having to be done - Check with Bone, he knows me.

These are GEAR-X Race Parts, and as such carry no warranty. However they should handle anything a D series can make.

Jeff (Kiwi) "

So where does the spacer go, under the gear, or the stack on the thrust and other washer under the mainshaft?

In the other thread you said that shimming would throw the shift forks out of alignment, yet Jeff still sent me one and directed me to you..

Aquafina said that the CS 3rd needs to be milled 1mm to be used as fourth.

While Dave/James at Synchrotech said only then case needs shaved to clear the mainshaft gears.

I'm not ignoring what you say, Bone, and at the same time you cant expect me to have read all 100,000+ posts...

I'm hearing different things from 4 reputable sources.


I don't want to bring politics into this. I'm looking for help getting this transmission together gears together.


I'll take lot's of pics and document how it goes for the next guy.


So Do I use this 1st gear shim AND mill the CS 3rd 1mm AND clearance the case?


I had not saw anyone using these gears and wanted to give it at try after seeing the sticky on OCO while my transmission was apart and I got this LSD.

Additional Info:

Bone:
CS 3rd = 35.50 mm
CS 4th = 34.50 mm

When 3rd is flipped to be used as 4th gear, the CS gear needs milled 1.0 mm

After talking with James and Dave at Synchrotech about my creative shimming I realized this would put the shifter fork/sliders out of alignment and created the issues Danz had.

Milling is needed.


Chris/Aqua:

When using 3rd as 4th (regardless if your actual 3rd gear is OEM or MFactory), the CS gear needs to be milled 1mm due to the difference in the height of the gears. This can be found when going through the measurements on the trans


Installing the close gear set isn't for the DIY'er as measurements need to be taken and corresponding machine work done to the stock 3rd gear. Depending on what trans it is, the case will also need to be modified for clearance.

The Gear-X gears have the exact same design as the old MFactory gears. Two piece design with a single weld to hold them together. The weld can break leaving you with a gear that will engage but a car that will go nowhere and only rev. That is why MFactory designed the new (current) gears, one piece construction with straight cut teeth for slightly more strength and less friction.

For others reading when using the MFactory 3rd the OEM 3rd used as 4th needs to be modified. Clearance for the hub on the MS gear and milling 1mm off the CS gear. If you don't mill, there will be interference (and damage resulting) between the mainshaft 2nd gear and countershaft 3rd gear.

Jeff: Your OEM 3rd. becomes 4th.

This kit works very well and now they have made the new gears straight cut they can handle a lot more power.

You should not have to make any modifications to the gears themselves- The first gear does come with a 1mm spacer that must be used on the '92+ Hydraulic clutch transmission. I have never heard of any other mods having to be done - Check with Bone, he knows me.
 

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Discussion Starter #4


Decisions..

I picked my best

2nd Gear and Mainshaft
Best Sliders/hubs
Best Stock 1.25 3rd
FD and CS

Meatiest Shift forks

Tomorrow my Gears should come.

Unfortunately I still haven't figured out a consensus on where to put this shim and if the 3rd gear does or does not need milled as many sources tell me different things

:(
 

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Unfortunately I still haven't figured out a consensus on where to put this shim and if the 3rd gear does or does not need milled as many sources tell me different things
Easiest way to be sure if you need to mill anything is measure the old gears and the new ones. Take your OEM 4th and measure it compared to the one replacing it. Danz had to mill his gear in his hydro trans for the 3rd as 4th.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks man.

I read through that and his thread on HondaTech and stlil didn't get any clear message.

It's funny how unclear the transmission people are.

I didn't get the gears today but I'm excited!
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
From Inline Four

The Gear-X high-ratio D-series 3.083 first gear is designed to be used in the Honda D15B/D16A SOHC 1.6 early 88-91 Civic/CRX with a cable clutch transmission. This gear can also be used in the 92-00 Civic with hydraulic clutch transmission, when the "included" spacer washer is used along with the early 1st gear needle roller bearing. Honda Part 91104-PL3-018.

So Not only do we need the included shim, but we need this needle roller bearing too.

The shim should be 1.5mm as Bone warns of the needle bearing blowing up when using a hydro needle bearing and bense says "hydro 1st needle bearing is 1.5mm taller"

This 3.083 first gear is 1.5mm too short for hydro transmissions, its made for cable transmissions.

In MY honest opinion, should have made two gears.

MAke all the gears "thick" like for a 92-00 tranny, then mill off extra as needed for the cable trannys. Yes this would be an extra step, but you can always mill the thicker gears as needed when the stock of cable gears gets low.

Myself, I never bothered to measure the differences between the gears, Bense seemed like he had a handle on it.

I will say this, get it wrong and you'll have issues like this......



So you must shim it 1.5mm, and use the 1.5mm shorter 91104-PL3-018 needle bearing.


That takes care of first gear in a hydro case.




Bense:


http://bensebuilt.livejournal.com/?skip=20

This is the Beginning of his journal, press go later at the bottom to flip through.


Using cable 4th gear in a hydro trans. A lot of guys are using the zc 3/4 gearset in their 92-00 trans. For the most part, this is a straight forward swap, HOWEVER. Modification IS required to the inside of the cable 4th gear to use it has a hydro 4th. If you do not do this, your 4th gear will grind horribly.

ronically, you would think that using a hydro 3rd gear as a hydro 4th gear would require the same modification that using a cable 4th gear as a hydro 4th gear. But take a look at that slightly machine vx 3rd of 1.0666 that mista bone did for me. Using a hydro 3rd as 4th gear requires no modification***

*** I have also come to realize that a hydro 3rd gear is SLIGHTLY taller than 4th gear. I forget the dimensions. But what happens is when you get the transmission running, the 4th gear actually "machines" the 4/5 collar. On my trans it blued the collar from the heat. Aside from the appearance this seems to have no adverse effect. The shavings from the collar will get caught by the transmission magnet. If you'd like, you can change transfluid after 100 miles. I will try to document the height difference between these gears.

The difference is 1mm as stated above by AquaFina.

It appears you CAN just flip it but Bense explains how close/janky it becomes, and Is highly advised, that you machine the gear 1mm to make it he size the transmission expects.

With danz confirming that Cable 3rds also need milled 1mm to be used in hydro 4th transmissions.

"well i got it apart and there is a .039" difference between the STD 3rd and the Y8 4th on the counter shaft.

the STD gear is just a bit taller.

also the hydro 4th gear has a "cup" and "lip" on its face where as the STD 3rd has a flat face. these are on the mainshaft... i didnt get a chance to measure these against each other last night...
"

"012 edit: you should machine the other side of the gear. machining this side will WORK and it will run just fine, but if you machine the other side of the gear you get better tooth engagement. credit to aquafina for that tip.



ok so i machined the bump on the "top" of the gear down, so now the gear is flush on top.

its .004 larger than the original gear but it should be just fine."
"i just shaved 1mm off of the flipped 3rd gear.

you can see the side i trimmed down


if i could do one thing different it would be to trim the other side of the gear down 1mm. i think i might have decreased the surface area for the gears to mesh."

Here is Danz Thread to put the ZC 4th gear in, and it only needed radiusing inside as it was already a 4th gear. (Not a flipped gear)

http://www.d-series.org/forums/tran...dified-zc-4th-use-hydro-trans-looks-like.html

http://www.d-series.org/forums/tran...hf-std-3rd-4th-hydro-case-i-need-answers.html

But what side to mill? The only thing I can't find a picture of. I have a good idea what one but still dont have the gears to mock assemble.


This will take care of the 3rd as 4th

For 5th Gear, I'll just carve away at the housing in the 5th gear mainshaft area until it fits.

Looks like I will need this cable tranny bearing and 1.5mm shim, AND my gear milled 1mm, and clearance the case.

And stake the CS bearing, Scuff the cones, de-burr shit.

Measure and shim.


Seems like the bottom of the CS 3rd as 4th is the one to mill.
And the 3/4 Hub/slider goes regular way in my scenario right?




So There!

Hope you enjoyed that..
 

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Brokedick Millionaire
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Fact #1, when flipping 3rd for 4th, 1mm needs milled off, period, Aquafina/Bense/Me know this now. Chris/Aquafina commented on a thread here I started about a MF short 3rd install.

Yeah, I know searching is a PITA, try looking up your own old posts....I have a lot of them.

From a link you provided, even Chris schooled me....

I could have told you that years ago Bone.

Toaster,

When using 3rd as 4th (regardless if your actual 3rd gear is OEM or MFactory), the CS gear needs to be milled 1mm due to the difference in the height of the gears. This can be found when going through the measurements on the trans (yes, I measure everything in every trans I build).
That said I have an early production Gear-X 3.083 first gear that requires the mainshaft to be ground a bit. Per Kiwi/Jeff Owen is was an issue with the German makers.
 

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CS 3rd = 35.50 mm
CS 4th = 34.50 mm

When 3rd is flipped to be used as 4th gear, the CS gear needs milled 1.0 mm
.............

 

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The 1.5mm needle bearing that has the PN 91104-PL3-018 is discontinued so you may have to get a good used one from a cable trans or use the measurements to find one that fits something else and order it 36X41X24.

I am sure bone and others have some from junk trannys lying around.

Or I have heard these guys can get them new still. Give them a call.

Gearspeed Parts Store for Retail & Wholesale
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
P/N: 91104-PL3-018
Dimensions: 36X41X24

Anbody have one PM me I need it!!

Off Cable transmission First gears!!



Your triple posts without any information is what makes it hard!

I think the internet has changed you.

If you could be direct, like me, this could be solved.



Now the version of first gear you have that required the mainshaft to be ground is not the same version I have, hopefully. The 1.5mm shim under the gear and shorter bearing above is all us common folk need.

For 3rd as 4th, get the bottom gets 1mm milled off the CS gear collar everytime.

Because of your indirect approach, I though the terms you spoke were conditional..


As for the 3-4 hub slider. It looks like in your pic it's an S40 trans because of the groove on the 3-4 slider.

As the 3-4 slider/hub are biased by the half tooth missing and corresponding catch on the hub lines up.

Looks like the hub/slider go the normal way.

Can you elaborate what gear combos require flipping the hub/collar?

Also the case shimming. Any more words on that?


Just Cause I found it.

"Countershaft Identification: Cable vs. Hydro
88-91 Cable = 260.3 mm in length
92-00 Hydro = 263.3 mm in length"

Also Talk about using full Cable Guts in a Hydro Case.

Apparently you need 3mm in shims below the Mainshaft bearing and 3mm below the CS bearings.


"However, in doing this I will try to switch to a zc mainshaft with the ~1.8% shorter 2nd gear. It's almost not even worth the time to swap 2nd gears. However since I already have the parts to do so, I will attempt it. I have heard that Bisi has done this using two 3mm shims on each shaft. Also, out of nowhere, an Aaron Hillman emailed me saying that he is sucessfully running ALL of his cable D guts in his hydro transmission. He said that he's using the cable fork assembly with the cable mainshaft and countershaft with two shims. One directly under the mainshaft ball bearing, with the other directly below both of the countershaft bearings.

Doing this will open up a few extra doors...
The 88-91 cable transmission has a few more gearing options that weren't available for the 92-00 hydraulic transmissions. Below listed is the unique cable components that aren't EASILY swappable.
2.95 final drive (crx hf)
3.88 final drive (dx and zc)
4.43 final drive (integra zxi)

1.650 2nd gear (crx hf)
1.894 2nd gear (dx/si)
1.944 2nd gear (dohc zc)

Main thing to note is the 3.888 final and the 4.4375

in doing this I am going to build the absolute shortest ratio D trans that can possibly be made with all OEM parts.
1st = 3.250
2nd = 1.944
3rd = 1.346
4th = 1.066
5th = 0.878
fnl = 4.437

1st -> 2nd = 0.598
2nd -> 3rd = 0.692
3rd -> 4th = 0.792
4th -> 5th = 0.824

Please note. Although there is the option of using the dx 1.172 3rd as a 4th gear. This is more 'geared' heh, for quarter mile acceleration whereas this transmission is more optimized for 'road racing.'"

That's right. By slightly shimming the cable countershaft, I would be able to run any of the additional ratios that are cable exclusive (2.954, 3.888, 4.4375)

Then the reverse: http://www.d-series.org/forums/transmission-alley/132770-hydro-fd-into-cable-tranny-can-done.html


But it ain't pretty!!!!!

CRX Si Cable case, with a 92-00 Hydro FD installed by King Motorsports.







There is your shifting problem!!!!



If it don't fit, force it.......and break it in the process.



Just another ITA tranny for IT Fest :)

Also the thrust washer and spacer washer were left out, the mainshaft had .050" of end play in it because of this. The CSB was also broken due to rushed install.


Tranny "A"

1) Shims and spacers left out likely causing a broken 1-2 shifter fork,

2) Fitting a hydro countershaft into a cable case buy grinding 3-4 mm off the end leaving no way to stake the lock nut.

3) Counter shaft case side bearing was damaged when gear stacks were dropped in, only part I didn't have on hand.

4) Magnet assembly was left out.

5) so much excess sealant it clogged the oil passages in the shafts

Tranny B)



1) You don't need a 1/2" impact set on kill to install bolts #10, it flatten out, and #19, it stripped the threads in the #3 tool steel cross shaft. If #19 would have came out driver would be unable to change gears as well it would likely end up in the ring and pinion killing it ($500-$900) and maybe wiping out the whole case.

2) Again you don't need so much sealant, you are not sealing up a Chevy SBC valve cover, a thin layer is all you need!!

3) Prying the cases apart and damaging the sealing surface, funny, they slide right apart for me.


Ring gears are the same 88-2000. The issue with the counter shaft, just grind away until is doesn't rub on the case. This might have cause 1-2 shifter fork breakage which is VERY rare in a SCCA ITA build that only uses 3-4-5 when racing.

I am withholding some info. Those with a clue can see some issues.

Like a B series diff bearing in a D tranny. Wait it doesn't fit, lets flip it backwards and see what happens!


Offtopic:

Is there any acceptable replacements to these rubber friction dampers? On almost all the transmissions I have taken apart, they have shredded, went into the mainshaft, and blocked oil to the bearings. Bearing let go, Shafts jingle around, you miss gears, grind them, then the transmission is totaled.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
I'm mainly seeing this on autox trannys where jumpin on/off the throttle in second gear is loading/unloading the bearing.
I went Blue.

The CSB stick out .022"





Tapped back into place, .012" below deck, about .035" movement





"You're my boy, Blue! You're my boy."



DEATH STAKED!!!!!!!!!



On my race transmissions I had a thin aluminum plate welded over the counter shaft bearing race. I tried JB Weld, green Loctite, set screws..... nothing worked until I just welded a retainer plate in place. It worked perfect, even with .065 in. worth of case/gear deflection due to the 500 ft. lbs. of tq. I was putting to it. -ZEX Man

More info about the cable FD in Hydro Case:

I installed it into a 92-95 DX case, all seemed fine except for the countershaft nut issue.

clogged oil passage
I stripped the splines on 5th gear.

The first failure point was 5th gear splines. When using a cable countershaft in a hydro case/gearset you lose about 20% of the spline engagement.

Only way I can see using the cable guts is to use the WHOLE gear assembly, like Bisi did.

But just the FD swap, I don't think it'll last. Needs more research.

I made it about 15k miles

More info here http://www.d-series.org/forums/transmission-alley/65366-cable-fd-hydro-case-death.html

-Bone

Look at this from 2006 bone! Whatdya say about that!

"CRX/Civic HF/STD 3rd gear, 1.033 ratio, direct drop in for 92-00 4th gear.




CRX/Civic DX/Si 3rd gear, 1.259 ratio, direct drop in for 92-00 4th gear, perfect if your going with Infinitude 3-5 close ratio gear set

"

It's gonna be as good as yours!
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Picture time!


OEM 4th CS 95 EX

OEM 3rd CS 95 EX

OEM 4th Gear Width

OEM 3rd Gear Width

CS 3rd on the left and CS 4th on the right, CS 3rd is JUST a cunt hair taller than 4th at the top of the gear teeth.

Again 3rd on the left. I will call these the bottom of the gears, and the reverse side collars.

The bottom of 4th is flush with the bottom of the gear, and has provisions for oil to move about.

The bottom of 3rd is raised 1mm, the amount of difference needed to be removed from the CS 3rd to use as CS 4th, however this raised 1mm has provisions for oil flow.

So, where to take the 1mm.

It would seem that taking it from the bottom of the gear would seem logical, as 4th does not have this 1mm ledge, however 3rd does not have the indentation and provisions for oil when machined flush. Machining from the bottom would make the entire bottom of the gear flat, flush, and I don't think that would be a good idea when Honda CLEARLY wanted oil flow there.

So then that means you have to machine from the collar. BUT from the edge of the collar to the top of the gear was almost the same with the 3rd being the tiniest bit taller than 4th.

Taking from the collar would move the teeth on the CS down, making the tooth engagement not 100%.

Would the better alternative be to take .5mm from the collar and .5mm from the bottom? It would increase tooth engagement, allow oiling on the bottom of the gear, and remove the last .5mm making it fit proper.

From the picture you posted it looks like you took it off the collar as well.

What's the answer? Can you Confirm?







Side Observation:

I put the CS 3rd with the MS 4th and the CS 4th with the MS 3rd and they seemed to mesh fine.

Why can't we mix/match the gears again? is the distance from centerline different, leading to binding?

The Mesh seemed alright and the 3.083 gear uses only one gear, not a set.

Anyway.


What, no one else is excited?
 

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Discussion Starter #20
"if you put them together it would likely grenade."

Explain grenade...

And why can't we make half gears like 1st?
 
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