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Old 07-11-2016, 04:57 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Modifying 3rd gear to be used as 4th

I'm retracing my footsteps with F/H trans, and my searches keep bringing me to threads like these:
https://www.d-series.org/forums/trans...install-6.html

Post #1 in this thread will be my response to that thread. And my next post will be regarding the same thing for F/H trans.

Bone, I now regret suggesting that one "universal" version of this gear be me. I agree with your remark about how the cable folks should have milled it if they were insistent on using it. At the time I had less experience and less formal education than I do now.

In regards to using a hydro third as 4th. (And yes, I realize that I'm reiterating what has been said in that thread)
mainshaft Grind a little bit away of the ID so that it has clearance for the synchro hub.
countershaftI seem to recall there being a 'lip' that would shift 5th gear away from 4th gear on the countershaft. I can't recall if it needs to be modified or not. Just compare it to the OEM 4th gear that you already have.

Get yourself a micrometer, sandpaper, and a smooth workbench, and start sanding away. Where there's material that doesn't need to be there, remove it. I'd suggest wrapping some electrical tape around the teeth of the gear, or moving your workbench to soft grass so that when you're doing that motion, reciprocating your hand back and forth with great fervor, that it doesn't go flying across the shop and getting chipped on the concrete floor.

For the 4/5 spacer collar, I just let the gears 'machine' it. I ran non-synthetic 10w-30 in the trans and flushed it after like 100 miles. Fluid looked good, but ultra-fine 'glitter' was visible. Don't overthink it. With the exception of the bluing of that spacer collar, everything in that transmission looked brand new every time I took it apart.



I accidentally corrupted my very large RAID storage array last night. Called out of work today, as I thought I'd be up late recovering data. I'm scared to think of it right now and I'm waiting for a few other folks to chime in on the threads I've posted on the appropriate forums. Reading about this stuff has kept me relatively sane tonight.
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Old 07-11-2016, 05:15 AM   #2 (permalink)
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For F/H trans:

D-series is lucky in that the splines on the countershaft for 3rd-4th are the same. It's like the pre-1992 cable transmissions.

For 92+ B trans and F/H trans; the splines on the countershaft for 4th gear are a different size than they are for the countershaft 3rd gear. The mainshaft gears require very little, to no modification.

The solution would be to find some sort spline bushing that has the proper geometry. Here's a site that showed up with a quick google search. This shows the general idea of what I'm considering: https://www.hydra.dk/store/hydra/en/product/185828

In general, here's a picture of one.


And here's an MFactory B/H final that showed up in a quick google image search. You can see the size difference



Yes, I know that I could just use an aftermarket 4th gear instead. I could also just abandon Hondas and move onto muscle cars, corvettes. I could also just never leave the house, or wait until a newer, more viable platform to come along. But ultimately, this is fun, ridiculous, keeping me out of trouble, and keeping me from stressing about all the data that I just lost lol.
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Old 07-23-2016, 10:41 AM   #3 (permalink)
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When I put a cx 3rd gear in my 4th gear spot I removed a little material from the spacer part of the gear. I just took a caliper and measured how tall the original 4th gear was and made the new gear the same. It would be best to use a lathe but I just ran it against a spinning chop saw disk. I took off .045".
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Old 07-24-2016, 09:52 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I totally came in here excited to lock an old thread that got bumped.

Now I am just confused.
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Old 07-24-2016, 11:54 AM   #5 (permalink)
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It would be best to use a lathe but I just ran it against a spinning chop saw disk. I took off .045".

I did the exact same thing...
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Old 07-30-2016, 10:42 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by FarmerD View Post
I totally came in here excited to lock an old thread that got bumped.

Now I am just confused.
Sorry to disappoint.

A lot of this is mostly my musings.

D-series 1-2 synchro hub fits the fourth gear spline of hydro B-series and F23 countershaft
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Old 07-30-2016, 10:46 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Sorry to disappoint.

A lot of this is mostly my musings.

D-series 1-2 synchro hub fits the fourth gear spline of hydro B-series and F23 countershaft
but it would be too wide....

Common spline machining setups/tooling, happens more than you think.
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Old 08-02-2016, 05:07 PM   #8 (permalink)
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but it would be too wide....

Common spline machining setups/tooling, happens more than you think.
Sure. I just wrote that for future reference in case I try to figure out how to find a spline reducer.

OR-- But knowing that, then all I need to do is retrieve the info from the parts catalog:

1999 civic DX second gear collar -
23912-P20-010 / COLLAR, DISTANCE (33X39X32)

This means that the splines on the 94+B-series and F/H-series for 4th gear are 33mm OD.
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Old 08-02-2016, 05:15 PM   #9 (permalink)
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1990-1991 cable LS 4th gear of 0.966 -- Wonder if this can be modified to work as a d-series 5th.

-------------
d16a1 trans has parts that interchange with 1989 accord trans.

------
1990 cable LS trans 3/4/5 needle bearings are the same ID/OD as our d-series 5th.
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Old 08-02-2016, 11:17 PM   #10 (permalink)
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1990-1991 cable LS 4th gear of 0.966 -- Wonder if this can be modified to work as a d-series 5th.

-------------
d16a1 trans has parts that interchange with 1989 accord trans.

------
1990 cable LS trans 3/4/5 needle bearings are the same ID/OD as our d-series 5th.
Crack open several manuals to compare gear thickness and such as listed in the specs.

Why a .966 5th when 1.000 is already available, like you had and needed to clearance the case for...why I ask for pics

Here is the deal, people want "custom gears" but are not willing to pay the price that they cost and look for shortcuts that really prove no/minimal gains.

Also depending on the car/weight/chassis/HP the ratios can be too close and the time lost making those extra 6 shifts each lap is made up with the slightly longer gearing.

92-93 LS vs GSR, both with 4.9 Finals, same car, same motor, same track.

Now this could change by going to a different track, say the difference between Mid Ohio (2016 Runoffs) and Daytona (2015 Runoffs)....but with 2017 Runoffs at Indy, everyone is clueless on the gearing that will be needed.

While there may be a perfect trans for a given car at each track, you might need 3-4 trans. with different gearing through out the season if budget allows. Mine you these people are racing for trophies, not money.

Also of note, PWC cars with K drive lines have to rebuild the trans after every race weekend, mainly replacing third gear. Go figure.
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Old 08-07-2016, 10:42 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Why a .966 5th when 1.000 is already available, like you had and needed to clearance the case for...why I ask for pics
If there were a 0.966 fifth that could be used

1st - 3.25
2nd - 1.909
3rd - 1.417 ('hypothetical' Cusco fourth gear that might exist)
4th - 1.172 (DX third)
5th - 0.966 ('hypothetical' existence)

The earlier cable b16 trans in the JDM zxi recycled the fourth gear from some other model. I forget which. A20 Accord, 80s JDM Prelude, I forget.
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Old 08-07-2016, 11:05 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Bone, I've got a client that has a semi local track that will not let him use aftermarket gears. Practicality is lost when under the constraints of laws defined in some arbitrary rule book.

Here's how I would have made the D-series close ratio kit:
1st - 3.083
2nd - 1.900
3rd - 1.481
4th - 1.172
5th - 0.966
Final = 4.058

But the 1.565 / 1.000 gear kit is awesome enough. D-series has so many awesome finals. You can go from 2.95 to 4.928. At least there's a feasible option to have a close ratio trans with a lower final drive for D-series.

I still think the best setup
1st - 3.083
2nd - 1.944
3rd - 1.565
4th - 1.25
5th - 1.000
Final 3.722, 3.888 or 4.058
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Old 08-07-2016, 11:21 PM   #13 (permalink)
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What is the trick to using 1988 mainshaft with the larger pressure plate? Something about using a prelude clutch?

Lots of familiar looking ratios
Our Transmission Specs? [Archive] - Honda Prelude Forum : Honda Prelude Forums
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Old 08-07-2016, 11:35 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bense View Post
Bone, I've got a client that has a semi local track that will not let him use aftermarket gears. Practicality is lost when under the constraints of laws defined in some arbitrary rule book.

Here's how I would have made the D-series close ratio kit:
1st - 3.083
2nd - 1.900
3rd - 1.481
4th - 1.172
5th - 0.966
Final = 4.058

But the 1.565 / 1.000 gear kit is awesome enough. D-series has so many awesome finals. You can go from 2.95 to 4.928. At least there's a feasible option to have a close ratio trans with a lower final drive for D-series.

I still think the best setup
1st - 3.083
2nd - 1.944
3rd - 1.565
4th - 1.25
5th - 1.000
Final 3.722, 3.888 or 4.058
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Old 08-07-2016, 11:40 PM   #15 (permalink)
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2.77
1.72
1.35
1.03

choice of 5th and FD for cruising or racing
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Old 08-08-2016, 01:10 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bense View Post

I still think the best setup
1st - 3.083
2nd - 1.944
3rd - 1.565
4th - 1.25
5th - 1.000
Final 3.722, 3.888 or 4.058
I used this setup with ~300 HP 16PSI and it was very very fun. Although I agree that your idea (Ratios) was better.

Maybe its just my limited experience, but I feel like reproducing the 1.9?? 2nds is becoming more in demand. They are mostly all very worn down. And I'm curious if a half-gear like the 3,083 1st can be done,



Quote:
Originally Posted by bense View Post
What is the trick to using 1988 mainshaft with the larger pressure plate? Something about using a prelude clutch?

Probably simialr to using a 350Z clutch/RB25 Flywheel on a KA24.

350Z matches the spline and PP bolt pattern(9).
RB FW matches the KA crank bolt pattern (6), as is the right Diameter and PP bolt pattern(9).

As far as the Accord/Prelude/Integra/ZC mess, check out 3geez for info on the A20 trans and what they do there with the CG trans and stuff. I helped walking a buddy though building a hybrid gear box for the A20. Might be something there for you. I am interested in the 1.4 and .9 options.


Lots of familiar looking ratios
Our Transmission Specs? [Archive] - Honda Prelude Forum : Honda Prelude Forums
Probably simialr to using a 350Z clutch/RB25 Flywheel on a KA24.

350Z matches the spline and PP bolt pattern(9).
RB FW matches the KA crank bolt pattern (6), as is the right Diameter and PP bolt pattern(9).

As far as the Accord/Prelude/Integra/ZC mess, check out 3geez for info on the A20 trans and what they do there with the CG trans and stuff. I helped walking a buddy though building a hybrid gear box for the A20. Might be something there for you. I am interested in the 1.4 and .9 options.


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Originally Posted by transzex View Post
2.77
1.72
1.35
1.03

choice of 5th and FD for cruising or racing
Where would one get those..?
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Old 09-05-2016, 04:47 AM   #17 (permalink)
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ah now the plot thickens bense.
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Old 09-09-2016, 12:09 PM   #18 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by TheToaster View Post

Maybe its just my limited experience, but I feel like reproducing the 1.9?? 2nds is becoming more in demand. They are mostly all very worn down. And I'm curious if a half-gear like the 3,083 1st can be done,


It was tried before, and just like the ZC gears, failed to gain anywhere close to enough serious interest.

Z6 and Y8 CS 2nd gears are both continued now. Z6 several years ago and Y8 a couple of months ago, I bought up the remaining stock of them.
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