What camber and toe have you set? Road racing/circuit - D-series.org

Go Back   D-series.org Motor Mayhem & Suspension Satisfaction Suspension Corner

D-Series.org is the premier Honda All Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-14-2018, 07:40 AM   #1 (permalink)
D-series soldier
 
curlybandit's Avatar
 
iTrader: (0)
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 571
Rep Power: 15 curlybandit is a name known to allcurlybandit is a name known to allcurlybandit is a name known to allcurlybandit is a name known to allcurlybandit is a name known to allcurlybandit is a name known to allcurlybandit is a name known to allcurlybandit is a name known to allcurlybandit is a name known to allcurlybandit is a name known to all
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
Default What camber and toe have you set? Road racing/circuit

Hey everyone.

I have a 1993 Honda Civic del Sol Si that I have built for the occasional open lapping/road race events. Here's the current setup:

Suspension:
- Skunk2 Pro-S V2 coil-overs: 10K front, 8K rear springs
- Buddy Club extended ball joints
- Skunk2 Pro-Series camber adjusters
- Skunk2 Black Series lower control arms with red polyurethane bushings
- Black BWR sub-frame brace
- BEAKS 22mm Integra Type-R sway bar
- unknown manufacturer upper strut bar

Rims/Tires (track):
- 15" bronze Rota Circuit 10
- BF Goodrich Rival S 205/50/15 front and back

Brakes:
- DC2 front knuckles/spindles
- Re-drilled Brembo blank 11.1" Prelude SR-V rotors
- Integra Type-R calipers
- Hawk HP+ pads front
- Hawk HPS rear
- Russell braided stainless-steel brake lines
- 1" Integra Type-R master cylinder and booster

I'm going to get the alignment sorted soon since it's been a little while. The last time I had it done I had the front wheels set to 2.5* negative camber with a slight toe-in (I can't remember the exact degree) and the rears were set to 1.0* negative with a neutral toe. It's worked really well to date but I'm wondering if anyone has tried other settings that they've found effective. If I were to increase the rear camber I'd need to invest in a set of rear camber adjusters. The 1.0* seems to be the max you can manipulate the stock suspension.

Thanks!

Edit: corrected the camber setting - had the numbers wrong
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


1993 Honda Civic del Sol Si.
The old: NA d16z6 - 158whp - RIP May 22, 2017 (dropped exhaust valve)
The new: OBD1 JDM GSR 1.8L DOHC VTEC - 198whp, 138wtrq, Integra Type-R S80 LSD transmission.

Last edited by curlybandit; 04-14-2018 at 02:40 PM.
curlybandit is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 04-15-2018, 05:58 PM   #2 (permalink)
Member
 
LAMER's Avatar
 
iTrader: (0)
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Uk/Bulgaria
Posts: 94
Rep Power: 9 LAMER is almost a somebodyLAMER is almost a somebodyLAMER is almost a somebodyLAMER is almost a somebody
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
Default

Camber - negative 2.5-3* fr, -2-2.5*rr is a good place to be, depending on rim/tyre size. Mine is about -3fr, -2.5rr

Toe front - if you want the front to be more responsive - add toe out, within the factory limit. Expect some uneven wear, rotating the tyres often is very good idea. For a specific, very slow track, with lots of corners, you can go toe out, out of the factory limit. The turn in will be amazing, uneven tyre wear will be significant (no matter what you do), but you will be quicker. Very sensitive steering wheel, is to be expected at high speed. Toe in will stabilize the front at high speed and make the steering feel less responsive. It really depends what you want to achieve. I personally go for toe out within the limit.
Toe rear - toe out will stabilize the rear at high speed. Toe in will make it rotate better, but migh make the rear unstable/prone to spinning at high speed. My pick is neutral. You have pretty stiff rear springs, (and 22mm rear sway bar?), to fight understeer, so that's a good place for you to be, imho.

Caster - that thing makes a huge difference. I'd look for a way to go with as much as possible, which seems to be about 5*. The limiting factor here are the oem cv joints running out of range at full left/right. The easiest way to get some, is to swap the L and R front upper arms. Ball joints (stock) are offset towards the front, once swapped they move slightly towards the back of the car, hence positive caster. Even this small difference in the caster angle is very noticeable, in a good way. Mine is about 4.5-5* iirc.

Strut bars - both front and rear are highly recommended. Any brand is good, as long as they are solid. You want to grab it in the middle, while mounted and shake it as hard as possible - any sign of adjustment bolts, brackets, or other elements, moving, wiggling, bending or other type of "give", will tell you if you have a good strut bar, or you are just carrying extra weight. One piece, home made/powder coated, works great for me.

Brakes - I don't know how long are the races you do, or how hard are they on the brakes, but if you are serious about results, you have to go with the lightest(usually small) possible setup (with well working/rebuilt calipers and excellent pads), that you don't overheat. This is unsprung, (some of it) rotational mass we are talking about. E.g. the difference in weight between 262mm rotor/caliper and 282mm rotor/caliper is ~3kg per side. The fastest circuit/time attack civic around me is running 242mm/ds3000 fronts and for a reason. The knuckles for the 242mm calipers are also lighter iirc. Immagine how much quicker you will be, if you loose say 6kg of unsprung, rotational mass, per side. The downside, apart from looks, is pad life. My pick here (considering weight of the car and hp) is 262mm rotors(10.3) with Wilwood DynaPro 4 pot/ndx blue stuff FR and 242mm rotors, rebuilt calipers/PBS Prorace pads RR. I am yet to test this engine/brake combo, but I believe it will be sufficient on the track, while not being an overkill. If I was under 200(maybe even a bit more)hp and under 1000kg, I would deffinitely try a 242mm front setup. It's all about having just enough brakes and not too much in reserve.

While on the subject guys, I'd like to know what's your experience with NOT running any sway bars. Is it possible to achieve a good balance just by using higher spring rates? 24mm front sway bar here, kW V3, but switching to 20kg/fr and 6kg rr, wondering if I could loose the extra weight. Hope op doesn't mind, it is for faster laps after all
__________________
Maxed out 565cc
LAMER is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-15-2018, 06:37 PM   #3 (permalink)
D-series soldier
 
curlybandit's Avatar
 
iTrader: (0)
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 571
Rep Power: 15 curlybandit is a name known to allcurlybandit is a name known to allcurlybandit is a name known to allcurlybandit is a name known to allcurlybandit is a name known to allcurlybandit is a name known to allcurlybandit is a name known to allcurlybandit is a name known to allcurlybandit is a name known to allcurlybandit is a name known to all
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LAMER View Post
Camber - negative 2.5-3* fr, -2-2.5*rr is a good place to be, depending on rim/tyre size. Mine is about -3fr, -2.5rr

Toe front - if you want the front to be more responsive - add toe out, within the factory limit. Expect some uneven wear, rotating the tyres often is very good idea. For a specific, very slow track, with lots of corners, you can go toe out, out of the factory limit. The turn in will be amazing, uneven tyre wear will be significant (no matter what you do), but you will be quicker. Very sensitive steering wheel, is to be expected at high speed. Toe in will stabilize the front at high speed and make the steering feel less responsive. It really depends what you want to achieve. I personally go for toe out within the limit.
Toe rear - toe out will stabilize the rear at high speed. Toe in will make it rotate better, but migh make the rear unstable/prone to spinning at high speed. My pick is neutral. You have pretty stiff rear springs, (and 22mm rear sway bar?), to fight understeer, so that's a good place for you to be, imho.

Caster - that thing makes a huge difference. I'd look for a way to go with as much as possible, which seems to be about 5*. The limiting factor here are the oem cv joints running out of range at full left/right. The easiest way to get some, is to swap the L and R front upper arms. Ball joints (stock) are offset towards the front, once swapped they move slightly towards the back of the car, hence positive caster. Even this small difference in the caster angle is very noticeable, in a good way. Mine is about 4.5-5* iirc.

Strut bars - both front and rear are highly recommended. Any brand is good, as long as they are solid. You want to grab it in the middle, while mounted and shake it as hard as possible - any sign of adjustment bolts, brackets, or other elements, moving, wiggling, bending or other type of "give", will tell you if you have a good strut bar, or you are just carrying extra weight. One piece, home made/powder coated, works great for me.

Brakes - I don't know how long are the races you do, or how hard are they on the brakes, but if you are serious about results, you have to go with the lightest(usually small) possible setup (with well working/rebuilt calipers and excellent pads), that you don't overheat. This is unsprung, (some of it) rotational mass we are talking about. E.g. the difference in weight between 262mm rotor/caliper and 282mm rotor/caliper is ~3kg per side. The fastest circuit/time attack civic around me is running 242mm/ds3000 fronts and for a reason. The knuckles for the 242mm calipers are also lighter iirc. Immagine how much quicker you will be, if you loose say 6kg of unsprung, rotational mass, per side. The downside, apart from looks, is pad life. My pick here (considering weight of the car and hp) is 262mm rotors(10.3) with Wilwood DynaPro 4 pot/ndx blue stuff FR and 242mm rotors, rebuilt calipers/PBS Prorace pads RR. I am yet to test this engine/brake combo, but I believe it will be sufficient on the track, while not being an overkill. If I was under 200(maybe even a bit more)hp and under 1000kg, I would deffinitely try a 242mm front setup. It's all about having just enough brakes and not too much in reserve.

While on the subject guys, I'd like to know what's your experience with NOT running any sway bars. Is it possible to achieve a good balance just by using higher spring rates? 24mm front sway bar here, kW V3, but switching to 20kg/fr and 6kg rr, wondering if I could loose the extra weight. Hope op doesn't mind, it is for faster laps after all
FANTASTIC INFO!!!

There's a lot of really great stuff to work with. Thank you!
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


1993 Honda Civic del Sol Si.
The old: NA d16z6 - 158whp - RIP May 22, 2017 (dropped exhaust valve)
The new: OBD1 JDM GSR 1.8L DOHC VTEC - 198whp, 138wtrq, Integra Type-R S80 LSD transmission.
curlybandit is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-29-2018, 08:13 AM   #4 (permalink)
Meat Popsicle
 
Paterico's Avatar
 
iTrader: (14)
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 2,896
Rep Power: 29 Paterico is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !Paterico is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !Paterico is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !
Paterico is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !Paterico is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !Paterico is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !Paterico is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !Paterico is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !Paterico is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !Paterico is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !Paterico is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !Paterico is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !Paterico is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !Paterico is on a level you can only DREAM about! ! !
iTrader Score: 14 reviews
Default

My setup on a 91 CRX Si

-1.5 camber up front with just the drop from ground control coils

-2.5 camber in the rear with adjustable upper control arms

+5 caster with ESP traction bar


Can’t remember the toe settings
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


R.I.P. Pat Primmer
Paterico is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-30-2018, 06:41 AM   #5 (permalink)
Tape-R taper/driver
 
LowFlyin''s Avatar
 
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 574
Rep Power: 17 LowFlyin' is the fucking MAN!!!!LowFlyin' is the fucking MAN!!!!LowFlyin' is the fucking MAN!!!!
LowFlyin' is the fucking MAN!!!!LowFlyin' is the fucking MAN!!!!LowFlyin' is the fucking MAN!!!!LowFlyin' is the fucking MAN!!!!LowFlyin' is the fucking MAN!!!!LowFlyin' is the fucking MAN!!!!LowFlyin' is the fucking MAN!!!!
iTrader Score: 3 reviews
Default

Caster - 3-5 positive. More caster means stronger return to center while turning, but it also means more effort required for low-speed maneuvering (parking lots, etc).

Camber (f) - 2.5-3.5 negative. Tire and track dependent.

Camber (r) - 1.5-2.5 negative.

Toe (f) - 1/16-3/16" out. Tire, track, and venue dependent (autox? endurance race? track day?).

Toe (r) - 1/8" in - 0 - 1/8" out. Tire, track, venue, and driver line-up dependent.
__________________
-Chris
'87 Civic Si
'91 CRX SiR
'91 Civic Tape-R
'91 Civic Wagon RT4WD
'03 Astro AWD
LowFlyin' is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 04-30-2018, 05:39 PM   #6 (permalink)
D-series lover
 
Henry44's Avatar
 
iTrader: (0)
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Oregon
Posts: 203
Rep Power: 7 Henry44 is da #1 stunnaHenry44 is da #1 stunnaHenry44 is da #1 stunnaHenry44 is da #1 stunnaHenry44 is da #1 stunnaHenry44 is da #1 stunnaHenry44 is da #1 stunna
iTrader Score: 0 reviews
Default

Here's our set-up. Keep in mind this is on a stage rally car that runs on gravel.
Caster + about 7 with a custom front core support and radius rods.
Camber 0 F and -2 R
Toe 1/16 in F 1/16 in R

We'd like more front camber, but the shell is wracked too much to make that happen with the amount of lift we need to have.
We run toe in front and rear to get some stability at speed on dirt roads. It gets really squirrely over about 60 (we hit over 90mph more than once in the last event) if we have any toe out on the front. For us, increased caster has more impact on turn-in than front toe.
Henry44 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the D-series.org forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


iconAll times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:37 AM. | Welcome to Forum, please register to access all of our features.