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Old 11-15-2017, 03:44 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Rear ARB brace?

I'm looking to use a Japanese spec ITR rear ARB on my EG hatch, however I'm not fond of the aftermarket braces needed to keep the subframe intact. Are there stock, or stock looking options? Actual pics of subframe failure would likely help me if nobody has another solution.
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Old 11-17-2017, 05:40 AM   #2 (permalink)
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ASR has a non-gloss black version that is not flashy.

It also depends on suspension as in how much travel, and how much % of the load the ARB is taking. Very soft dampers regardless of spring rate are likely why they tear...

The subframe is thin, I've slightly bent them being super careless back in the day pulling out LCAs that were stubborn - bent as in, there was minute play when installing the LCA again.

Also a big thread on it: http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthr...subframe/page3
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Old 11-17-2017, 09:33 AM   #3 (permalink)
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ITR had more metal back there to prevent tear out issues, so you are gonna wanna run the brace.

Many have tried to do the stealth look like you want to. Those same people had to replace the rear subframe. Some are no longer available.
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Old 11-17-2017, 03:02 PM   #4 (permalink)
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ASR has a non-gloss black version that is not flashy.

It also depends on suspension as in how much travel, and how much % of the load the ARB is taking. Very soft dampers regardless of spring rate are likely why they tear...

The subframe is thin, I've slightly bent them being super careless back in the day pulling out LCAs that were stubborn - bent as in, there was minute play when installing the LCA again.

Also a big thread on it: WOE is me, whiteline swaybar and ripped subframe - Page 3
Thanks for the link and pictures.

Looking around at what is online for the ASR bit you suggested returns a variety of obvious clones and unmarked knockoffs, all seem to have the same design.

Is there a significant performance difference between the braces that seem to have no design differences?

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ITR had more metal back there to prevent tear out issues, so you are gonna wanna run the brace.

Many have tried to do the stealth look like you want to. Those same people had to replace the rear subframe. Some are no longer available.
It isn't so much that I'm looking for stealth as I'm looking to avoid the thing looking like a 16 year old kids car.

--------

It seems that most subframe braces use the same basic design, a flat plate or machined truss deal coupled with backing plates of various forms.

The whole plate thing bothers me, that design does not seem to offer much by way of torsional rigidity.

In any case, if the basic subframe brace design works I'll certainly go with an unbranded knockoff unless there is reason to avoid them.
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Old 11-18-2017, 12:59 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Run a brace. It is there to keep the subframe from ripping out, not to look pretty or incognito. If you don't like how it looks you can either swap in an ITR rear subframe (will cost more than the car is worth) or not run a big sway bar.

Get a real ASR directly from them. Paint it black if you don't want it to be seen. Mine is raw aluminum and goes unnoticed by most since I don't clean it off.
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Old 11-19-2017, 12:38 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I like the ITR subframe option, it is a more perfect solution to the exact issue I want to address.
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:02 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Noob question here. What does ITR stand for?
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:03 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Noob question here. What does ITR stand for?
Integra Type R
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:23 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Thanks. Not even close to my best guess.
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Old 11-19-2017, 03:14 PM   #10 (permalink)
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2nd gen Beaks is fine for EK, if it's still available. That picture posted has been floating around for years, I've never seen any evidence of the 2nd gen failing. I've had one on the daily for over 100k miles, no issues.

The EG design was never documented to fail afaik. Last place I remember seeing them for sale (where I got mine) was ICB.

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Old 11-19-2017, 06:13 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Thanks. Not even close to my best guess.
No problem, there are so many abbreviations floating around as well as chassis codes it can get a bit out of hand.

--------

I'm interested in a couple options at the moment based on what I'm seeing;

An ITR rear subframe would satisfy my stock looking desire, obviously cost and down time are going to be a fairly big hurdle to jump. Its a fun project car so that isn't a deal breaker.

An internal fabricated brace is looking like a fairly clean option that I can possibly make happen, and might work better than the external brace options. I need to pull the rear suspension and see what kind of room I have to work with just to see if the idea is even worth it.

The basic concept for an internal brace would be to use as large a tube as is possible to pass through the inside of the subframe, end caps would be fabricated and welded or bolted to the tube and serve as backing plates for the ARB mounts.
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Old 11-20-2017, 04:42 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Old 11-21-2017, 09:09 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Agreed. Replacing a subframe, if not needed, is a pretty huge surgery.
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Old 11-21-2017, 12:44 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I'd like to, which is why I'm not really very interested in the silly looking external brace that every other EG is rolling around with.

The stock ITR subframe is a more complicated install and I suspect slightly lighter than an internal brace made of DOM steel.

An internal brace is maybe $20 in materials and less than a foot of TIG welding per side, that is about as KISS as it could get.
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Old 11-23-2017, 08:10 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Interested to see what you come up with.

FWIW, had a very similar conversation 5 years ago on H-T, with the same badgering from the natives for me to just put an ASR on there and be done with it. I'm still running the Beaks kit, 100k later, with tons of canyon time and sticky tires. No issues.

https://honda-tech.com/forums/suspen...inued-3059583/
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Old 11-24-2017, 02:58 PM   #16 (permalink)
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In what regards does the "external" bracing not seem to work?

It may be the same reason why the J's racing fender brace is seen as "weak/flimsy" because it's thin - but engineering wise is actually rigid and light where where both idea's make sense.

The method your approaching seems to sound like an "internal" sway bar to counter the actual sway bar lol.

Anyway, the reason why it works is because if you think about the LCA/sway bar mount points are essentially cantilevered onto the chassis. The ASR updated bar uses the LCA to support the brace as well, V1 didn't do that.

If not designed properly you will have a similar tear to the first pic, which is running a Comptech brace if my eyes are correct. And before that picture I thought the Comptech design was good enough.

But I had a guy track a GSR with ITR bar but on the gold "backing plates" in the 2nd pic. That's Sebring bumpy ass track and he was very competitive = suspension travel/dampers can play into it all as well. Maybe even Spherical vs Poly vs rubber as well.

There are many factors, I'm using maybe a 1st Gen or possibly fake ASR bar (no made in USA/serial #) with V2 ASR backing plate kit - which could be the reason why I may get away with it.

Also I am on high quality dampers that on even 8k springs make the car flex sidewall before actually compression if you try to jar the chassis = proper high/low speed dampening. And the suspension travel is maybe just over 2in with only 1in droop which means the range of motion is very minimal overal. But am running 12k springs all around.
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Old 11-24-2017, 03:08 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JGTC-EG View Post
Thanks for the link and pictures.

Looking around at what is online for the ASR bit you suggested returns a variety of obvious clones and unmarked knockoffs, all seem to have the same design.

Is there a significant performance difference between the braces that seem to have no design differences?
TL;DR of my other post is, using the LCA as a brace point seems to make the largest difference, you may be able to run a smaller brace based on that idea - and that is orginally from ASR. I may even test this concept if I ever get serious aero on the car *cough, for more massive rear diffuser space*
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Old 11-24-2017, 08:48 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mr.Fodo View Post
TL;DR of my other post is, using the LCA as a brace point seems to make the largest difference, you may be able to run a smaller brace based on that idea - and that is orginally from ASR. I may even test this concept if I ever get serious aero on the car *cough, for more massive rear diffuser space*
Being able to tie the front and rear vertical sections of the subframe together with the LCA bolt is smart. This splits the load placed on the subframe between the front and rear vertical sections. The flat plate that ties the left and right sides together is not a great design at all; flat plates really do not provide torsional stability without being overly bulky.

To a degree you are correct imagining an internal sway bar, but in this case one that connects the front and rear vertical sections of the subframe and prevents deflection between the left and right ARB mounting points. ((By internal I mean inside the rear subframe, not inside the car))

I suppose, functionally speaking, the internal bar is to do what the external plate does, without being visible, and provide far more torsional strength to tie not only the front to rear but the left to right as well.

On the ASR brace, do the ARB bushing bracket bolts tie the front and rear vertical sections of the subframe together?

I read every word, there is no TL;DR
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Old 11-25-2017, 03:56 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Do you want a super simple and very effective subframe brace that will prevent it from tearing out even with a 32mm hollow bar (the ITR subframe won't) or do you want to be different from everyone else for no reason?
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Old 11-26-2017, 10:38 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Do you want a super simple and very effective subframe brace that will prevent it from tearing out even with a 32mm hollow bar (the ITR subframe won't)
I think I was fairly clear on my criteria from the get go, stock or stock looking capable of using an ARB from the Japanese spec ITR.

To expand on this a bit, I will likely never need or use a bar larger than the ITR bar. This does not mean that I will not consider the strength needed to fit one, I will.

A 32mm bar would, in my opinion, make driving the car on our rough roads a nightmarish experience. Our uneven road surfaces, tight turns, sometimes banked, often patched, and narrow lanes simply aren't going to allow a super stiff suspension with little travel.

While I want the car to crisply turn in I need it to do more than just that, I will not ever truly push the car to the absolute limits of its or my driving ability. It isn't a racecar.

This is a street car that I will use to enjoy the canyon roads in my area of SoCal and the odd road trip vacation.

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or do you want to be different from everyone else for no reason?
While I have not owned an ASR brace, my opinion of them is similar to intentionally having my dog shit on the drivers seat to keep my wife from driving my car.

I detest the things on the grounds that they are ugly, the fact that the do function is quite secondary to the fact that I don't want to put a pile of crap in/on my car.

Being able to go another similarly functional route and avoid the disgusting looking contraption under the car is for me reason enough.

If you don't appreciate that I really don't know what else to say to you about it.

I might use a knock off brace as a temporary fix while I figure out a functional solution that I like, that's as far as I will go, and I'll feel like I have a huge booger hanging off the undercarriage each and every minute its on there...
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