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Old 11-21-2016, 04:24 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Question What Makes Suspension "Fast"?

As a long time member, I've always heard that the suspension should be faster than the engine.

I'm getting older and drag isn't me anymore. I'm more interested in modesty & spirited driving. (Soft ride, but able to take turns tight.)

So I pose the question: What makes suspension "fast"?

I have a EJ2 (DX) Coupe. I currently have Koni Yellows on the back, KYB AGX on the front, Ground Control top hats, Ground controls all the way around, lower tie bar (front & back), strut bar (front & back) and the bar that goes across the back were the seat belts bolt in at. I'm on 15x6.5 slips (195/50/15) with 6-7mm wheel spacers.

I just would like to maximize my suspension as much as possible while still being minimal.

Sub frame brace? H brace? Sway bar (I really don't want one)?,etc? Should I remove something? All suggestions welcome.

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Old 11-21-2016, 05:53 PM   #2 (permalink)
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it really just depends on what you're doing with the car as far as what makes it faster. generally whatever keeps the wheel in contact with the road the most is the way to go. More travel can be better, but stiffer isnt always faster either.

If you want a softer ride while still having the performance and grip i personally feel that a monotube shock makes a lot of difference. more adjustability is usually better but as far as shocks go you kinda get what you pay for. I personally like softer springs and more travel as well.
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Old 11-21-2016, 06:14 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Tires
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Old 11-21-2016, 06:26 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Tires
I've had several. Sumitomo. Hankook. Falken. etc (205/50 & 195/50)

I never really felt a significant difference.

However, I have felt a significant difference with running different amounts of psi in the tires.

What do you suggest?
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Old 11-21-2016, 06:35 PM   #5 (permalink)
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it really just depends on what you're doing with the car as far as what makes it faster. generally whatever keeps the wheel in contact with the road the most is the way to go. More travel can be better, but stiffer isnt always faster either.

If you want a softer ride while still having the performance and grip i personally feel that a monotube shock makes a lot of difference. more adjustability is usually better but as far as shocks go you kinda get what you pay for. I personally like softer springs and more travel as well.
Tires!

As for shocks, I dunno any other struts that have more damper settings than Koni Yellow without being a complete coilovers (strut & coilovers together).
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Old 11-21-2016, 06:58 PM   #6 (permalink)
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"make the suspension faster than the car"

I think its a reference to BMW.

the idea is the suspension can handle much more than the car can throw at it.

Think of say, the dirt bottom civic, but you put the Integra Type R suspension and brakes on it. you have a car that will easily be capable of putting down what the civic powertrain can to the wheels. Very rough sketch/idea
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Old 11-22-2016, 10:19 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Fast, for me, as far a suspension is concerned is it's ability to carry speed through the turns. The faster your suspension, the less speed you have to scrub off to complete a maneuver.

That being said there's a lot to making a fast suspension (and I'm by no means an expert) here's my take on it. A lot of this will have room for expansion as far as an explanation.

Tires - this is the single most important part of any suspension set up. It does not matter how good the rest of your set up is, when your tires run out of grip ... you lose.

Springs - springs do a couple of things they hold your car up ... and they dictate how weight is transferred in during a turn (also known as roll resistance). The harder the spring rate, the less it leans and the flatter the car will stay ... keeping as much of the tires in contact with the ground as possible. This is often a balancing act between ride comfort and handling. The stiffer the spring rate the more roll resistance you have, but the harsher the ride will be.

Dampeners - these regulate your springs, this is where quite a bit of your ride quality comes from. Over damped springs will be incredibly harsh because the springs are not allowed to oscillate and absorb the bumps (which is their job). Under damped springs will be bouncy and create weird "soft patches" as the weight is bouncing upward which will reduce the amount of force exerted between the tire and the road (which reduces grip).

Sway (anti-roll) bars - these can be part of the ride comfort vs handling compromise. These can increase the effective spring rate when the car starts leaning by creating an extra form of resistance to weight transfer. However if you get too big of a bar, this can backfire by causing the outside wheel to lift by, essentially, rocking you up on the sway bar. However these can allow you to run softer spring rates for ride quality.

These are the big things that most people will deal with. There are other bits that can affect the handling as well, alignment specs, chassis bracing, weight. At the end of the day it's all about keeping the biggest patch of every tire in contact with the ground as possible.

This is overly simplified.
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Old 11-23-2016, 12:40 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega Blaze View Post
As a long time member, I've always heard that the suspension should be faster than the engine.

I'm getting older and drag isn't me anymore. I'm more interested in modesty & spirited driving. (Soft ride, but able to take turns tight.)

So I pose the question: What makes suspension "fast"?

I have a EJ2 (DX) Coupe. I currently have Koni Yellows on the back, KYB AGX on the front, Ground Control top hats, Ground controls all the way around, lower tie bar (front & back), strut bar (front & back) and the bar that goes across the back were the seat belts bolt in at. I'm on 15x6.5 slips (195/50/15) with 6-7mm wheel spacers.

I just would like to maximize my suspension as much as possible while still being minimal.

Sub frame brace? H brace? Sway bar (I really don't want one)?,etc? Should I remove something? All suggestions welcome.

corner balancing and quake proofing will make a world of difference if your looking into suspension aspects of a quick steer performing vehicle, BLOX is running specials on full body coilover kits this week. if thats something of interest, other companies might be as well.

Especially tires rated for the abuse and gripping capabilities.


a local buddy owns and races the RSMOTORS Evo you've probably seen at GRIDLIFE and other touring events and he is constantly balancing.. remember tho alot is skill. but its always awesome learning new things

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the bar that goes across the back were the seat belts bolt in at.
a harness bar, correct? your honestly better off with a floorbar, those things are dangerous in serious accidents and are more for looks, install a cage if you wanna be safe lol.
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Old 11-23-2016, 12:47 AM   #9 (permalink)
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he also autocross's my buddies old H22a N/a Hatch

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Old 11-23-2016, 01:22 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Old 11-23-2016, 02:04 AM   #11 (permalink)
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you mean Andy? lol
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Old 11-23-2016, 02:05 AM   #12 (permalink)
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now that it's finally started to snow and get colder the ice racing is about to begin around here,
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Old 11-23-2016, 02:08 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I built my suspension to handle any situation on my 99 EX.

24mm Front Suspension Techniques ASB
24mm ASR rear ASB
ASR Subframe brace
1pc strut tower bar
Buddy Club Upper control arms
Raybestos Pro Grade Ball Joints

F&F Type 1 coilovers
Camber kit


I had mine corner balanced and the difference is night and day. Alot of people will say "Just get it close on the collars and you'll be fine" but this isnt the case. Once you drive a balanced ride, you'll be amazed on how well it will perform.

I didnt have adjustable end links when balancing, but mine was balanced with links off so ASB's were neutral. They didnt have alot of load on them afterwards and my final was 52F/48R which was damn good IMO.
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Old 11-23-2016, 07:37 AM   #14 (permalink)
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what kind of alingment machine are those??
never seen just heads before
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Old 11-23-2016, 11:41 AM   #15 (permalink)
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what kind of alingment machine are those??
never seen just heads before
John Bean Prizm EL system and turn plates its like a $7000 setup lol
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Old 11-23-2016, 12:12 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Old 11-26-2016, 08:34 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Just some random comments about some of the things in this thread...

For the OP, you didn't mention your spring rates, which will make a huge impact on your car's comfort and handling. F/R bias as well as overall stiffness do matter. And why KYB on the front but Koni in the rear? You also mentioned that you had tried several diffferent tire brands, but you didn't say what models they were. It makes a big difference. It looks like you live down south; if you really want the best performance and don't need cold weather tires, get something in the 200TW range.

Corner balancing the car is important, especially for a track car. However, in a FF chassis, you really don't want equal weights front to rear. Esoteric said his is 52/48; I can't imagine getting it there without adding quite a bit of ballast to the rear of the car, which will be detrimental to performance. In addition, it would be much more difficult to put down power without more weight on the front. FWD cars perform better with a forward weight bias; if you desire a near-50/50 balance, get a RWD car.
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Old 11-27-2016, 03:39 AM   #18 (permalink)
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detrimental to performance?
50/50 weight is always ideal in autocross and circuit racing.


trouble putting power down is always a case of sloppyness in the suspesion.bushings.bracing, or lack of tire traction.

of course, more power always makes it much harder to find that balance of throttle and turning
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Old 11-27-2016, 08:15 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Interesting, so I went looking and found this interesting tidbit.

4. Myth: The "ideal" weight distribution is 50/50: The vehicle has the same weight on both the front and rear axles.Truth: While most sport-oriented cars do have weight distributions close to 50/50, there's much more to proper handling than just distribution. A car with 50/50 weight distribution would handle poorly if most of the weight was at the ends of the car (i.e., ahead of the front axle and behind the rear axle).

Far more important than weight distribution is the location of the center of gravity and polar moment of inertia. (The center of gravity is where a giant could balance the car on one finger. Polar moment of inertia refers to whether the vehicle's weight is concentrated in one location — which makes for a responsive car — or spread throughout the vehicle.) Something else against 50/50 being the ideal weight distribution: Most open-wheel Formula-style racecars, which many people would hold up as being the best-handling type of racecars, have 60 percent or more of their weight on the rear tires.
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Old 11-27-2016, 01:22 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Interesting. I'd always believed polar moment of inertia is related to the vehicle's resistance to twisting.
The moment of inertia relates to the system's resistance to angular acceleration. That is, on whether or not a car is 'twitchy'.

The rear weight bias of racing cars helps to overcome understeer. Of course, their aero packages do more for how the cars handle than where the mass is concentrated.
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