Jonathan Mod 10.2" Front Brake Upgrade from 9.5" (1990 Civic DX) - D-series.org

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Old 01-03-2016, 05:40 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Jonathan Mod 10.2" Front Brake Upgrade from 9.5" (1990 Civic DX)

Hi guys,

Current Setup: 1990 Civic DX w/ aggressive street pads on 9.5" brakes (195mm UHP summer tires)

Why UPGRADE?
More braking/thermal capacity so I have to option to take it to the track, I'm happy with the braking power I have, but I want the insurance of consistent braking. The local track here is known to be a brake graveyard (Mission Raceway Park)

For reference: honda-tech.com/honda-crx-ef-civic-1988-1991-3/easiest-brake-upgrade-you-never-knew-about-details-inside-1171175/
Quote:
Parts list:

-'91 Civic EX Brake rotors...same as 92-95 Civic Sedan rotors ($14.99 each at Pep Boys; probably cheaper at AutoZone)

- Accord Wagon Brake Calipers (will be stamped 17CL15VN; ~$50 rebuilt at Pep Boys). These are the exact same calipers as the ITR, Legend, Prelude VTEC etc. Great stopping power!

- Accord Wagon, Prelude VTEC (etc) Brake Caliper mount stamped 25T (a 23T bracket exists, but I can't promise you it will work). This is what came stock on the Accord Wagon.

- 1/8" wheel spacer OR grind ~1/8th" (2.5-3mm) off of the caliper mounting bracket. If you are familiar with the 11" brake upgrade, this is the same modification necessary.

Now, the installation...

First, you need to place the wheel spacer (or washers if you're ghetto) between the hub and your new 10.2" brake rotor.

OR shave off the ~1/8" necessary from the caliper bracket

Next, Install your rotor, mount the caliper, load the pads....(you know how to do all this) and enjoy your upgraded brakes!!!
Here are the reasons why I am leaning towards this setup over:
1) DA Front Knuckle swap
*** Questionable 25 y/o parts eg. calipers, bearings, etc >>> Cost of Knuckles + calipers + pads + rotors = ~$400-$500 CDN
*** ~14 lbs over other brake setups

2) FastBrakes 11" kit
*** Cost ($475 US + shipping = ~$750 CDN after taxes)
*** CANNOT use 14" wheels (I'm getting old, need I say more?)

Between RockAuto and Amazon (spacers = amazon.com/Hubcentric-Spacers-Accord-Prelude-Integra/dp/B00A4QFV9K ), I can piece the Jonathan Mod setup for $200 CDN.


My main question for this thread is this setup actually as simple he states it is?
1) Remove calipers, then rotors
2) Install spacer to hub
3) Install new bits in reverse order

I have searched other threads (BrakeExpert/Redline96, remoer, plus other big brake threads but most are from 10 years ago with missing photos).

Thanks.
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Old 01-03-2016, 05:47 PM   #2 (permalink)
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where do you see spacers for the hub? the spacer is for the caliper bracket.....


also, are you sure you searched?
https://www.d-series.org/forums/suspe...rade-info.html
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Last edited by slo_eg8; 01-03-2016 at 05:52 PM.
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Old 01-04-2016, 02:02 AM   #3 (permalink)
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The topic of this thread is to see if anyone has done this brake setup or something similar, I'm trying to avoid doing any grinding/custom work.

All the options I listed previously are bolt-on affairs (hopefully) so there's no chance of messing it up.

This is pulled from the thread on H-T.
Quote:
Now, the installation...

First, you need to place the wheel spacer (or washers if you're ghetto) between the hub and your new 10.2" brake rotor.

OR shave off the ~1/8" necessary from the caliper bracket
Plus, I theoretically like Jon Mod setup more than the other two.
Jon mod (big pad on medium rotor) vs DA everything (medium pad on medium rotor) vs FastBrakes (medium pad on big rotor)

So... Has anyone successfully used type R/wagon calipers without grinding stuff?
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Old 01-04-2016, 09:00 AM   #4 (permalink)
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so, you didn't read anything from the link I shared?

Quote:
Originally Posted by latapx View Post
The Accord Wagon front caliper is the same as the Type R front caliper. The difference is in the carrier bracket. With the Accord caliper you do not need to mill anything. WIth the Type R caliper you have to mill the carrier bracket in order to make everything work ok.
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Old 01-04-2016, 10:39 PM   #5 (permalink)
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My bad. My threshold for absorption was well passed when I created this thread.

Read up on those long 15 page threads but I believe the only other thread that confirmed the use of the Accord bracket was the one you provided. So thanks, slo_eg8. How do I give rep on this forum? Do I hit the + button?

Looks like I'll be upgrading my brakes this spring.
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Old 01-05-2016, 02:59 AM   #6 (permalink)
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yes
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Old 01-05-2016, 07:54 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I SERIOUSLY doubt your setup will be 14lbs lighter than a DA whole spindle and brake setup.
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Old 01-05-2016, 08:51 AM   #8 (permalink)
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BOTH caliper brackets need to be machined or shimmed because they're the same part number.

Look it up (caliper+bracket), same listed for Type-R & Accord 5-dr (wagon):
45018-SM5-000 (right)
45019-SM5-000 (left)

It is the 23T bracket, and "23T" is cast into the part clearly. IIRC there are 2 other atypical brackets people sometimes get with reman'd kits, 25T and 28T, which refers to the slot cut for the rotor. Chances are he got a reman'd kit with 28T's. If you have 2.5mm more clearance per side but the bracket is 2.5mm farther out (unmilled), it works but isn't ideal.

The caliper needs to be moved towards the inside of the car by 1/8", or the rotor moved out 1/8". If you use a shim, it is placed between the rotor and the hub. If you mill the bracket, you mill the face that touches the knuckle tabs.

I know because I've milled two sets for my own cars. I asked for Accord Wagon & got 23T's both times. I milled 1/8" off and they fit perfect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by boibuddha View Post
My main question for this thread is this setup actually as simple he states it is?
1) Remove calipers, then rotors
2) Install spacer to hub
3) Install new bits in reverse order
Yep, it should be if you get a 23T bracket. Bleeding them is the time-intensive part (as with any caliper swap).
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Old 01-05-2016, 09:52 AM   #9 (permalink)
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How about wilwood? Their kits seem affordable
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Old 01-06-2016, 01:02 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelEspinoza View Post
I SERIOUSLY doubt your setup will be 14lbs lighter than a DA whole spindle and brake setup.
You're right, Joel. I misquoted Ben Ogle (post #9) from here,
http://honda-tech.com/honda-crx-ef-c...inches-668258/
Quote:
Ben Ogle

Btw, the complete knuckles add 6lbs 7oz per side incase you were wondering.
He was comparing complete DA and EF knuckles. I can't post links due to lack of permissions apparently.

@HiProfile
I was initially confused when you mentioned the 23T bracket instead of the 25T Jon mentions, so I looked into that and found this thread here,
http://www.mnhondas.com/showthread.php?t=3913
which included working pictures and differences between the brackets. The number on the bracket refers to the spacing/slot (mm) to fit the rotor like you had mentioned.

I would assume the ideal to use the 23T bracket for the 21mm thick rotor to avoid issues being low on brake pad material?

The information is out there like you guys mentioned but I couldn't go off the word of an internet hero without pictures to verify what he was saying. I only happened to find Charlie Moua's post from doing an image search for the 23T bracket.

@NeonPinHead
I'm trying to avoid Wilwood stuff because I'm not sure if their components are readily available where I am. Using OE stuff, I could have that stuff tomorrow morning in the worst case scenario.

Thanks everyone.

Last edited by slo_eg8; 01-06-2016 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 01-06-2016, 01:20 PM   #11 (permalink)
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you can post the link with a space in it and Ill fix it
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Old 01-06-2016, 02:24 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boibuddha View Post
I would assume the ideal to use the 23T bracket for the 21mm thick rotor to avoid issues being low on brake pad material?

The information is out there like you guys mentioned but I couldn't go off the word of an internet hero without pictures to verify what he was saying. I only happened to find Charlie Moua's post from doing an image search for the 23T bracket.

I was going to cover that but my post was getting a bit long. If you look at the pictures in that link, he puts a ruler into the slot. It doesn't start at zero, but it essentially shows a 23T is 25mm wide. A 23T = 25mm gap for 23mm rotors. The rotor & bracket are fixed while the caliper/pads float, so 1mm per side is fine.

A 25T is probably 27mm wide, and might touch the rotor's backside if not machined (or shimmed). Presume an original 1mm clearance for 19mm rotor & EF caliper, plus 2mm for the larger bracket (half of 25mm vs 21mm), minus 2.5mm for the offset = 0.5mm clearance. A NSX's 28T should work great but good luck finding a pair. All would run the caliper 1/8" farther out on the pins.

I was still thinking 23mm rotors since I have 11.1" monsters, not 10.4", but it still looks like a good idea to shim/machine. FYI shims are cheap.
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Old 01-06-2016, 04:49 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boibuddha View Post
You're right, Joel. I misquoted Ben Ogle (post #9) from here,
BIG Brake upgrade, Will 91 Interga Kunckles fit a 90 DX lowered 2 inches? - Honda-Tech

Btw, the complete knuckles add 6lbs 7oz per side incase you were wondering.


He was comparing complete DA and EF knuckles. I can't post links due to lack of permissions apparently.
But what all was he weighing? He said the complete knuckle, did that include the brakes? Because there isnt much to be complete about the knuckle, it is one piece with a bearing.

A bare CRX DX/Si knuckle and a bare DA knuckle are not much different in weight, but if you have on the rotors and calipers 6.5 lbs difference sounds about right. So when you take the Civic/CRX knuckle and add on the heavier DA rotor and much heavier accord calipers, I am guessing any weight advantage you had is all but gone.
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Old 01-11-2016, 10:00 PM   #14 (permalink)
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In the spring when I get stuff installed, I'm going to be going with all DA stuff.

I found a wicked deal for complete front knuckle assemblies and rear trailing arms for $130.

I'm looking at upgraded, completely rebuilt brakes plus the read disc conversion for ~$500. I couldn't turn that down.
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