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Old 06-18-2014, 02:22 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Track Only: Inverted outer tie-rods

Hey guys, here's a new dilemma.

Car is set up for AutoX/ TA/ yada yada. I recently got it corner balanced (2018lbs!!) and I'm noticing new suspension gremlins, both good and bad.

Good- corners even better on the 225/45 rubber, smooth turn in, excellent acceleration out of the apex.

Bad- Noticeably more bump steer, toe'ing out over bumps ..... This is due to the inverted Megan Racing tie-rods (track only) I installed. It turns in better, but the lack of confidence at high speed is getting to me.

Anyone ever have this issue? I think I'm going back to OEM outer tr's because I never had the issue before.

That being said, they'd be awesome for drag racing (straight-line versus corners), due to the toe settings you get when accelerating in a straight line. I WILL BE SELLING THESE SO STAY TUNED.

Let me know what you guys think. Here's a quick snap of them below...
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Old 06-18-2014, 02:45 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Is that the only thing you changed before you started having these problems?
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Old 06-18-2014, 02:51 PM   #3 (permalink)
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bump steer would be even worse without the kit.

Someone finally made a kit....I wanted to do it 15 years ago but clearance with OEM equipment would clear the rim let alone the taper issues.
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Old 06-18-2014, 02:51 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Is that the only thing you changed before you started having these problems?
Yeah for the most part. The suspension was already complete and nothing new added since.

I think it's the fact that it toes out so badly over bumps and that's why it feels lose. OEM outer tr's are longer too. Been thinking about it all day. Even with the lower extended ball joints + OEM rods it never had any bump steer. You add the inverted rods in the mix... boom, instant bump steer on regular roads.

Straight line its fantastic.
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Old 06-18-2014, 02:53 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by transzex View Post
bump steer would be even worse without the kit.

Someone finally made a kit....I wanted to do it 15 years ago but clearance with OEM equipment would clear the rim let alone the taper issues.
Ya know, since OEM rods are cheap, I'm going to try them out because I never had ANY bump steer with the OEM's. It's a combo between the lower ball joints, and in the inverted rods that makes it drive almost out of control over bumps.

Trust me, the suspension is dialed in on all 4, only thing changed was the rods, I guess we'll see if it works or not.
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Old 06-18-2014, 02:55 PM   #6 (permalink)
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With wider rubber, some tramlining should be expected. What is your static toe out?

Honda did a good job designing these cars, I see no need to use anything other than OEM.
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Old 06-18-2014, 02:58 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by WrongWheelDrive View Post
With wider rubber, some tramlining should be expected. What is your static toe out?

Honda did a good job designing these cars, I see no need to use anything other than OEM.
You are right on the money, 100% correct. Honda did a fantastic job dialing everything in. Of course I HAD to screw with it.

Front
Toe= 0 R&L
Camber= 2.5 degrees R&L
Caster=+0.4

Literally... wish I had a pic. On the ground, toe is zero/ perfect. Raise it off the ground, toes out to like +4 degrees. Lower it back down, zero again. So think of what happens when you hit a bump on one side of the car, toes out but the other side is still zero. Thats! what I'm getting at.
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Old 06-18-2014, 03:35 PM   #8 (permalink)
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All Honda suspension does that. Are the tie rods level when car is on the ground?

Ackerman is a weird thing, how much do you want? I used to change it up when RC racing, let the inside tire DIG in....F1 cars are doing it as well now.
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Old 06-18-2014, 04:31 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Whats your ride height like?
They exist to cure bump-steer with low ride heights, if they made it worse then I would think you must be near stock ride height.
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Old 06-18-2014, 06:49 PM   #10 (permalink)
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these cars are so good , right out of the box....good bushings, decent dampers, play with spring rates, dampers, and sways, but oem bump steer isn't too bad at a reasonable ride height

in many classes, you aren't ALLOWED to play with that stuff, and guys go SILLY fast around tracks, with low na D16 horsepower,on oem geometry

if it feels not-awesome, I can tell you oem gometry feels pretty greatl haha

good luck, and don't let the aftermarket convince you that you need parts you don't need!
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Old 06-18-2014, 07:58 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transzex View Post
All Honda suspension does that. Are the tie rods level when car is on the ground?

Ackerman is a weird thing, how much do you want? I used to change it up when RC racing, let the inside tire DIG in....F1 cars are doing it as well now.
I assure you.... mine never did. I've never had bump steer till now. Tie-rods are level at ground height.

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Whats your ride height like?
They exist to cure bump-steer with low ride heights, if they made it worse then I would think you must be near stock ride height.
Ride height is not super low, not stock. Tire top sits flush with fender.

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Originally Posted by adamjabaay View Post
these cars are so good , right out of the box....good bushings, decent dampers, play with spring rates, dampers, and sways, but oem bump steer isn't too bad at a reasonable ride height

in many classes, you aren't ALLOWED to play with that stuff, and guys go SILLY fast around tracks, with low na D16 horsepower,on oem geometry

if it feels not-awesome, I can tell you oem gometry feels pretty greatl haha

good luck, and don't let the aftermarket convince you that you need parts you don't need!
Yeah I'm missing the OEM geometry with 0 bump steer, sucks a bit. I purchased these b/c the old ones needed replacing anyway. Oops
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Old 06-18-2014, 08:02 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Here's a geometry observation..... the inverted tie-rods are actually an 1" or so longer and you have to wind them down a bit to get it sitting the way the OEM rod sits. Also, the ride height changes when you install them, almost 1.5". So I know these are nothing like the OEM rods at all when that much has to be aligned/ set right.

This is just an observation if someone is looking to purchase them; either from me or online. Lots of aligning needs to be done.
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Old 06-19-2014, 04:32 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Ur tie rods should be at the same angle as the LCAs. So maybe the combination of the extended ball joints and the inverted tie rod ends are throwing it off.
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Old 06-19-2014, 07:42 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Why do people still use extended ball joints in double wish bone when they are ment for MacPherson strut?


If they did anything good to double wish bone don't you think any of the "tuning" companies in the 90's would of made/used them? I'm talking about Spoon/Mugen/J's Racing/TADA you know the ones who actually raced
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Old 06-19-2014, 07:29 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Why do people still use extended ball joints in double wish bone when they are ment for MacPherson strut?


If they did anything good to double wish bone don't you think any of the "tuning" companies in the 90's would of made/used them? I'm talking about Spoon/Mugen/J's Racing/TADA you know the ones who actually raced
Amen.

Yeah great, we can get our LCA back to hopefully level at ride height and hopefully the inverted tie rods maintain parallelism with the LCA as much as possible. What about the upper control arm, what about the camber curve?? The upper control arm is at almost a 45 degree angle when the vehicle is lowered, without the extended ball joints, stock camber curve is out the window
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Old 06-19-2014, 07:57 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by EGDriver93 View Post
Here's a geometry observation..... the inverted tie-rods are actually an 1" or so longer and you have to wind them down a bit to get it sitting the way the OEM rod sits. Also, the ride height changes when you install them, almost 1.5". So I know these are nothing like the OEM rods at all when that much has to be aligned/ set right.

This is just an observation if someone is looking to purchase them; either from me or online. Lots of aligning needs to be done.

I'm not saying you are incorrect, but I don't see how changing only the tie rods will change the ride height, toe for sure. I question if both the lower ball joint extensions and inverted tie rods were installed at this same time? I could definitely see installing the extended lower ball joints changing the ride height though
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Old 06-19-2014, 11:44 PM   #17 (permalink)
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my guess is that because of those ball joints uca is too high and camber is becoming *in* too fast, so that in upper point tie rod is *too long* and wheel is toeing out

btw dna, you're wrong, very respectful racing company does them. buddy club =))))))))

ow get rid of those bj's and then proceed with tuning the suspension and eliminating bump steer
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Old 06-20-2014, 10:25 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Of all the SCCA racers/customers I know, NONE are running any of the lower balljoints, but the flipped tie rods idea has came up.

The issue is though, to need those items the car would be lowered below SCCA rules. Also certain Hondas (DA Tegs) if you lower them past a certain point you run into axles not lasting for a weekend even though the ride height is still above the SCCA rule limit.

Just because you can lower a car to the ground....doesn't mean you should.
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Old 06-20-2014, 04:45 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I know jack all about suspension modding. This came to mind:


You put Megan Racing parts on a track car? WTF?
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Old 06-20-2014, 05:00 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I have these Megan Racing UCAs that have HardRace branded Bushings and BallJoints in them..
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