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Old 11-08-2015, 09:07 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default any mid engine d16 guys in here?

Just wondering if there are any d series mid engine guys on this forum? Got a few questions for them and how there car fishtails. Maybe I should look into nsxprime or mr2 forums. Long shot but giving it a shot because nsx utilizes a v6 and very good suspension design for its time. But mr2 92 and older have lots of oversteers issues.
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Old 11-08-2015, 09:15 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Your gonna be hard pressed to find mid engine rwd dseries guys.

I donr have much info, but im sure stiffer sway bars and very wide and sticky tires would help keep the car going in the direction you point it.

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Old 11-09-2015, 05:31 AM   #3 (permalink)
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There was a guy with a sand rail running a D16 recently.

Tuning out oversteer is the same general recipe. Youre going to need a pretty stiff sway bar in the rear to deal with the weight of the engine being back there, but if the weight distribution is causing lots of oversteer you will be forced to throw more spring rate and more sway bar at the front until it gets neutral.
You could also experiment with a staggered tire setup.
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Old 11-09-2015, 02:30 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Basically look up everything you need to do to remove understeer from a stock civic and do the opposite.
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Old 11-09-2015, 02:55 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honda_couped16y8 View Post
Just wondering if there are any d series mid engine guys on this forum? Got a few questions for them and how there car fishtails. Maybe I should look into nsxprime or mr2 forums. Long shot but giving it a shot because nsx utilizes a v6 and very good suspension design for its time. But mr2 92 and older have lots of oversteers issues.
It's not really oversteer but "snap oversteer" That is an inherent problem from being mid engine, rwd and short wheel based.

Here's a cool article on the subject and even has a correction chart of what to fix via your symptoms.
A driver's guide to oversteer | drivingfast.net

Ricemaster on here has a 700-800whp 2nd gen mr2, he is no stranger to slow cars and has not gotten into the throttle once in 4th (at least not yet). He said the car is trying to kill him all of the time.
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Old 11-09-2015, 03:22 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Thanks for the input guys. I'll be sure to read that article too. I wish I could compare to the mr2 but my hatch has a 100"-101" wheelbase and the d series I want to install is about 100lbs lighter than the mr2 engine. Hope snap oversteer won't be as bad and hope the extra 6" wheelbase helps more than an mr2 94". Guess I'll try to lower cg as much as possible. Yeah I'm planning to run some 225/50/16 and hope that'll help. The rear sway bar will be a front 96-00ex sway bar. I just hope that's not an overkill. I was reading up on Porsche mid and rear engine snap oversteer issues also. Guess more researching.
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Old 11-09-2015, 03:25 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Also going to make front track wider than rear track and run 205/50/16" up front with maybe -1 degree of camber.
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Old 11-09-2015, 03:56 PM   #8 (permalink)
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For street tires size doesnt change traction, tire compound changes traction.
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Old 11-09-2015, 04:03 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelEspinoza View Post
For street tires size doesnt change traction, tire compound changes traction.
I beg to differ.

Ive had some seriously sticky 195 wide tires be horribly out gunned by a cheap set of 225 wide tires on the same car.

physical dimensions ''can'' (and should usually) make a large difference, though of course not guaranteed.
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Old 11-09-2015, 04:57 PM   #10 (permalink)
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If I was doing a mid/rear engine conversion I would start off with a stock front suspension on the rear. In my experience softer stock like suspension usually is lower performance but is more predictable and you are less likely to experience snap oversteer.

These are the things listed in the article to reduce oversteer, which makes sense because they are exactly the opposite of what typical FWD racers do to their cars.

Reducing the rear tyre pressure
Softening rear springs or anti-roll bar
Use softer rear tyres

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattliston View Post
I beg to differ.

Ive had some seriously sticky 195 wide tires be horribly out gunned by a cheap set of 225 wide tires on the same car.

physical dimensions ''can'' (and should usually) make a large difference, though of course not guaranteed.
Physics disagrees. Unless your tires are soft and hot enough to actually stick chemically to your surfance (VERY unlikely with street tires on the street) the tire contact patch size doesnt effect the total friction.

Now if you are talking about hot drag slicks sticking to the chemicals used on the staging area of a drag strip, that is a different story.
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Old 11-09-2015, 05:56 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelEspinoza View Post
If I was doing a mid/rear engine conversion I would start off with a stock front suspension on the rear. In my experience softer stock like suspension usually is lower performance but is more predictable and you are less likely to experience snap oversteer.

These are the things listed in the article to reduce oversteer, which makes sense because they are exactly the opposite of what typical FWD racers do to their cars.

Reducing the rear tyre pressure
Softening rear springs or anti-roll bar
Use softer rear tyres



Physics disagrees. Unless your tires are soft and hot enough to actually stick chemically to your surfance (VERY unlikely with street tires on the street) the tire contact patch size doesnt effect the total friction.

Now if you are talking about hot drag slicks sticking to the chemicals used on the staging area of a drag strip, that is a different story.
Bolded part is definitely worthy of a WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU SMOKING.
tire patch not effecting total friction? AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

camber degree's can effect tire patch and also overall traction. Just one example where tire patch changing can seriously impact grip.


anyhoo


Physics disagrees?

Did you get any sort of hint when I use words like "should" and "not guaranteed"?

BTW my side comes from my little EXPERIENCE: drag times. autocross times. daily driving.

I put over 10k miles on each of those tires I am talking about.

I was in no way, shape, or form saying an explicit or concrete statement.


And no, I was not talking about hot drag slicks. I probably would have typed "hot drag slicks" if I was talking about them.

Holy shit dude... Get off the bottle
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Old 11-09-2015, 06:15 PM   #12 (permalink)
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From a physics classroom standpoint, friction is independent of surface area. By spreading the mass over a larger area you are creating less force per unit of area, meaning that friction would remain the same even with a larger "contact patch".

This makes perfect sense where talking about 2 theoretical, perfectly smooth, surfaces like what we would imagine in a physics thought experiment. In the real world we are talking about a porous bumpy road surface being conformed to by soft rubber.

Joel is probably right in that the effect is way more pronounced when talking about ultra soft and sticky race tires, but I am confident the effect still remains in street tires. They too are made of a deformable, soft material.

Additionally, a wider tire is going to effectively have more rigidity in the sidewall, meaning that the contact patch will remain more consistent through the corner, making the car more predictable and better able to cope with the ever changing road surface.
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Old 11-09-2015, 06:18 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Ive concluddd softer rear suspension to a certain extent and wider tires, also to a cert extent are better, specially when dealing with going sideways in a very unforgiving mid engine car. I have no choice but to use front suspension components in my mid engine as that is what the build was made of: using 96-00 front end. It ran a f22a before but want something slightly lighter and cheaper with better $$/HP up to 400-500hp which vitara setup will do.

On side note do you guys know which vitara build is respectable? I found p2p0 as one and a few eBay. Is p2p0.com the way to go?
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Old 11-09-2015, 06:21 PM   #14 (permalink)
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What car is this and why havent I seen pics of it?
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Old 11-09-2015, 06:27 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Okay I'm not sure why my posts won't let me reedit. Maybe there is a secret phrase to the "reason or editing". One of my worries is the 98 ex front sway bar being a bit on the big side. Because even rear nsx sway bar is smaller than our front bar. Im sure nsx and civic sway bar are of similar design, thickness and metal. Could be wrong. But I'm just going off diameter size because that's all I have for reference.
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Old 11-09-2015, 06:28 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Its on the cb7 tuners forum and civiceg forum. And set as my display photo.
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Old 11-09-2015, 06:28 PM   #17 (permalink)
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The basic formula for total friction is the coefficient of friction x normal force (weight), surface area isnt a factor.

That being said, in the real world there is some differences because of the inperfection of the surfaces used. IE asphault is made of of many different friction surfaces, if your contact patch was the size of a pencil eraser you would hit high and low friction areas and it would be wildly unpredictable, a contact patch the size of a baseball would be much more consistant, but the larger you go the less difference each increment will make.

Your personal observation is inherently flawed:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattliston View Post
Ive had some seriously sticky 195 wide tires be horribly out gunned by a cheap set of 225 wide tires on the same car.
You compared different types of tires, with totally different compounds, at different points of their life, all of which wildly change the coefficient of friction. You are not isolating any variable, let alone size specific.

I have older worn down 195 912 ziex on my car, if I went out tomorrow and bought brand new 175 912 ziex they would definately have better friction. By your faulty logic I could conclude that a smaller tire sticks better, but that would not make it true.

Go try exactly matching new street tires from the same tread compound lot and composition that are only different in contact size and try them under the same conditions on untreated asphault on the same day. Unless they are actually sticking to the asphault chemically, you wont see a significant difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Full_Tilt View Post
Joel is probably right in that the effect is way more pronounced when talking about ultra soft and sticky race tires, but I am confident the effect still remains in street tires. They too are made of a deformable, soft material.
It isnt a conformation issue, a chemical reaction resulting in adhesion rather than simple friction is a different formula.

It is like the difference between saying the surface coefficient of nylon on nylon is X and the normal force on the nylon surfaces is Y, so the friction is Z...... Then someone saying the 2 nylon surfaces in question are velcro. You have moved past friction into a deeper interaction of surfaces. For car tires this really only applies heavily to drag strip staging in my opinion though.
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Old 11-09-2015, 07:18 PM   #18 (permalink)
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OP: Any reason to not consider 3rd gen mr2? or 996?
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Old 11-09-2015, 07:29 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I did consider a 3rd gen mr2 which a slightly longer wheelbase and lighter chassis. Looked at one but didn't like feeling all squished in it and the roof top leak issues. The wheel well to tire is just odd looking. Didnt want to rewire cluster and do ngine swap. Would have ran into exp axle combos also. Only toyota engine ill run is the one in my lexus ls400. That engine is going to be the heart of my future custom kit car. Stay tuned. On top of all that and many more reasons it my dumb curse of wanting to be different.

I can't afford a Porsche lol. Sadly. Even if I did I wouldn't go with one. I spent less than $800 going eg mid engine on misc parts, metal sheets, metal bars etc etc.


On top of all the debating does anyone know which other vitara combo is good. I got p2p0 and a few eBay. Thinking p2p is the more legit seller. I heard fjt was out of business a while back. Anyone know if p2p is as good or better than fjt's vitara setup. Heard some seller has different vitara pistons like the coating and heat treating processes. which is the best vitara combo?
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Old 11-09-2015, 09:38 PM   #20 (permalink)
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