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Old 10-11-2015, 12:40 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Cost Effective all motor build

Hello fellow d series members. I have been planning this build for quite some time now and I will likely be starting it in the next couple months.(working harvest time and soaking up the overtime for the next month or 2 to get my funds up)The car is a 92 si and is completely bone stock. The only thing I have done is an a/c delete and p/s delete. I came up with this list to hopefully net me about 135-145 hp to the wheels. Any advice or tips is appreciated. Here is my list:

- OEM main/rod bearings $100
- OEM z6 head gasket $50
- Protuninglab headers $215 ( I already know that they are an unknown brand and most ppl will say to go with smsp, hytech or bisi headers but they are way out of my budget at the moment and for the price I have confidence that they will yield better results than DC)
- 2.25 in. Exhaust piping $200
- Spec D Apexi N1 2.25 inlet/3.5 tip muffler $35 (is there much of a difference in power to make it worth getting the Apexi WS2 muffler for $300 I don't believe it would be worth it hp/$ but who knows)
- K&N drop in filter and snorkel delete $50 ( there seems to be mixed info on whether a Sri yields better results then just a k&n drop in filter. Cai had better gains but I am not taking the risk of hydro locking my motor being we get quite a bit of rain in my area.)
- P29 pistons $120 ( with OEM head gasket should put me at about 12:1 CR on 93 pump gas)
- Shotpeened stock rods $50
- Comp 59300 cam $250 (Im not getting valve springs and retainers because i don't plan to rev past redline)
- Mild p&p and 3 angle valve job $500
- Exedy stage 1 clutch $240
- Exedy 12 lb flywheel $220

That sums up my list and puts my build at just a hair over $2k. The exhaust shop will do all the exhaust work and I'll have a local machine shop do the porting of the head but I plan to attempt to do the bearings, HG, pistons, cam and everything else myself with some help from my step dad. I am doing this as more of a learning experience than anything before I decide to get an ek and do a b20vtec build. But I am curious to see what you guys think and have to say. Oh and another thing I'm kinda lost on is tuning. Are there tuners at most dyno shops that will help with that and what engine management would be easiest for my build. Do the tuners usually choose what engine management to use? Thanks in advance.
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Old 10-11-2015, 02:49 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Do springs and retainers. Get a bigger cam. Get aftermarket inj.

Get a good tune.

With that you will.easily hit your goal and then some.

Stratton.
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Old 10-12-2015, 02:38 AM   #3 (permalink)
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You don't need aftermarket injectors for 140 wHP. Maybe upgrade if your car has those 190cc injectors, but you can stick with OE Honda injectors out of a B-series motor. Also, don't people suggest the PG6 pistons over the P29 pistons? I had P29s and I think they are garbage.

On the tuning aspect, most dyno shops will have a tuner. I'd find someone semi-local with a lot of Honda experience though. Your setup could probably be tuned on Crome if anyone was willing to work with it. I'd suggest a Neptune RTP unit since you can keep it for your next build.
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Old 10-12-2015, 02:44 AM   #4 (permalink)
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the title is an oxymoron, there is no such thing.

turbo or don't bother
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Old 10-12-2015, 04:05 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by shoebox_civic View Post
the title is an oxymoron, there is no such thing.

turbo or don't bother

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Old 10-12-2015, 05:15 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I'm assuming the header is the bisi replica. Personally i wouldn't mess with port and polish. Put that money into managementa and tuning.
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Old 10-12-2015, 05:35 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I'm not going turbo. There is a reason I posted this in the naturally aspirated forum. I want to keep the reliability and less maintenance of n/a. Yes the headers are bisi replicas. And I know I will need to tune either way but I figured porting the head is fairly decent hp/$ for an na D. And the valvesprings I've heard are unnecessary if I'm not going to be revving passed redline. The car is stock now and I rarely ever rev past 6k but when I finish my build I'll go maybe 7200.
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Old 10-12-2015, 05:51 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Head porting is at the end of cost effective. Tuning produces much more gain per dollar.
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Old 10-12-2015, 06:56 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 92NAz6 View Post
I'm not going turbo. There is a reason I posted this in the naturally aspirated forum. I want to keep the reliability and less maintenance of n/a. Yes the headers are bisi replicas. And I know I will need to tune either way but I figured porting the head is fairly decent hp/$ for an na D. And the valvesprings I've heard are unnecessary if I'm not going to be revving passed redline. The car is stock now and I rarely ever rev past 6k but when I finish my build I'll go maybe 7200.
The idea that a turbo is less reliable than NA is ridiculous. P29s are going to be more wear and tear than a small turbo putting down more power. I'm pretty sure you can save yourself a ton of money and use a generic header (no 's', it's an inline motor). If you can do a mild port job yourself, I say go for it on the exhaust side. I think intake port matching to the head isn't ideal. I've read mixed things, but never messed with it myself.

Also, if you are doing this to learn, there is no reason a T25 turbo build with the same sort of internal work won't net you experience. Even a factory rebuild is going to be good experience.

Just a suggestion: Don't ask for advice then say, "I heard this and I'm sticking with it." It gets on peoples nerves.
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:09 AM   #10 (permalink)
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You need to learn the science of it before you can build this.

Just making the head flow better and not making the air move more efficiently is gunna yield you little gains.

I care not, you seem to have you mind made up, so build it, and we will all enjoy and rejoice in harmonious laughter.
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:21 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Old 10-12-2015, 08:03 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I disagree, I got 165 whp pretty cost effectively IMO

Turbo doesn't add that many additional issues NA doesn't also.
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Old 10-12-2015, 08:21 AM   #13 (permalink)
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First off, either do an engine swap or go turbo. 2k on a turbo with your stock engine could easily crush your goals, a b16 swap would meet your goals in stock form, a b18c1 or LS/Vtec-B20/vtec would beat them by a lot. Any of these could be had for around 2k depending on your local pricing if you shop around some and are careful about what you buy.

However if you do want to stick to your plan here is some advice:

Same header cheaper:
4 1 Stainless Drag Racing Manifold Header Exhaust 88 00 Civic CRX Delsol D15 D16 | eBay

Pg6 pistons are better than p29 because pg6 pistons have more compression height and less dome height. That means the entire pg6 piston is closer to the head for better head/piston interaction and it doent have the huge dome to mess with flame travel. If you want more compression than the 11.67:1 compression pg6 pistons would get you, either deck the head .010, or carefully remove the middle layer from a 3 layer headgasket. Honda D-Series Compression Calculator by ZealAutowerks

The stock 240cc d16z6 injectors flow plenty for your needs. They are good for around 200 crank hp on a NA engine.

Skip the port and polish, z6 head flows pretty well in stock form and unless the person you take it to really knows what they are doing, they will very likely to make it flow worse.

Buy valve springs, there is no point in building a NA engine of the same displacement as stock if you dont plan on reving it higher and a z6 with sheetpeened rods should easily be safe up to 8k. More airflow = more power, with NA this means more displacement or more engine speed (or both), with turbo this means more air compressed into the same space. Doing a stock displacement NA engine with the stock RPM limit is asking for disappointment.
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Old 10-12-2015, 09:43 AM   #14 (permalink)
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My last engine build -

A6 head and block - $300 machine work (75.5 bore/hone, head shave and valve work)
Honda composite headgasket - $65
Honda main and rod bearings - $200
Z6 intake manifold and throttle body - $0 (already had)
Colt Tri-Flow Cam - $125 (bought from DSO)
Isky Valve Springs - $125
NPR 75.5 PG6 pistons and rings - $110
ARP head studs - $75
adjustable cam gear - $75 (bought from DSO)
generic 4-2-1 header - $0 (already had)
Hondata S300 - $0 (already had)
tuning - $300
Action Clutch solid organic disc - $100


130whp, could have had a higher hp number, but the cam was actually advanced to get the power in the low-mid range as this is an endurance racing engine

So, I got to your goal easily for $1475
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Old 10-12-2015, 10:19 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I would go bigger on the exhaust and get an intake manifold+good intake to go along with the exhaust.

Or swap in a B18C
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Old 10-12-2015, 04:50 PM   #16 (permalink)
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You guys sure are swap and boost happy lol. I'm just sticking with what I got. I don't care to be fast just want some extra pep. But I'll look into he pg6s and I thought that 2.25 in exhaust is supposed to be the best for na d builds. I mean that's what I've noticed from most builds. Especially since I'm not doing an all out na build. Just some mild mods. Appreciate the comments guys, gives me some things to look into.
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Old 10-12-2015, 05:13 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Cost Effective all motor build

Youre so dead set on it just build the fracking thing and see what it does.

Dont tell people your plans, show them your results!

If you dont know what you want, youll end up with a lot you dont.
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Old 10-12-2015, 06:14 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Turbo hondas can be reliable. That is all.
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:45 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 92NAz6 View Post
You guys sure are swap and boost happy lol. I'm just sticking with what I got. I don't care to be fast just want some extra pep. But I'll look into he pg6s and I thought that 2.25 in exhaust is supposed to be the best for na d builds. I mean that's what I've noticed from most builds. Especially since I'm not doing an all out na build. Just some mild mods. Appreciate the comments guys, gives me some things to look into.
The thing is that unless you are out to build for specific class rules or out to blow your money to prove something, a NA D just isnt viable past a certain point financially, and 2k is edging that limit pretty firmly.

If you want to build a turbo civic a D series is great, they are cheap, abundant, slightly lighter weight than Bs and Ks and can produce more power than a street tire civic can ever hope to hook up, so the justification for swapping to a different engine series is minimal in a street car.

But if you are talking NA you can blow 10k on a NA D series and not make as much power as a b18c1 does in stock form more reliably for far less.

So just plan appropriately, and really decide if you will be happy forever with that 135-145hp. If that really is all the power you will ever want, 2k into a NA D series isnt a horrible investment, but you wont be able to go beyond that without hitting a huge cost per performance increase with that platform.

However if you decide to spend that 2k turbocharging your D or doing an engine swap, you will have much more than 135whp off the bat and the potential to go even further without throwing away all you had invested so far, which is what would happen if you decide the NA D isnt enough down the road.
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Old 10-12-2015, 08:11 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mitchwbr View Post
Turbo hondas can be reliable. That is all.
very much agreed, i turboed my first honda a couple years ago (d16y5) and had not one issue with it in two years of daily driving it and over 50,xxx miles. it really depends how well you build it and how well its tuned, if your going to tune an N/A civic you could have just as many issues as you could with a turbo civic. i didnt notice a chipped ecu in your list but im pretty sure you wont gain a whole lot of power with any of the parts listed unless you tune the motor.
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