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Old 07-24-2015, 08:36 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Water injection newbie questions

So, in the future I would like to go water/meth, since e-85 is 40 mins from me...

I have done a lot of research on it and I realize its benefits but most people talk about the science behind it which is great, but I have been trying to figure out my own DIY kit which from the looks of it could easily be pieced together for WAY less than what some of these companies want for kits......

Am I missing something here, but even the cheapest kit I personally know of is everything you need and quite simple:Coolingmist Water Methanol Injection Kit with Checkvalve for Turbo or SC | eBay

I believe you could piece it cheaper than that.... using your washer fluid reservoir as an existing tank.


Few questions I have for someone that has done their own DIY kit. I like this diagram because its the most simple one I could find on the damn internet without all the B.S.:http://turbomirage.com/waterpix/waterinjection.jpg
1. Whats the purpose of A master switch..... I dont really understand why you NEED it....

2.The water solenoid they refer to in the pic at first I thought they mean it as A check valve. But this has power going to it. Is it necessary too? I plan to run A check valve if I cant find a pump that has one built into it.
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Old 07-24-2015, 08:49 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Master switch
Just turns the spray on and off... No boost signal, no spray.
You don't need it, but it would be a good idea to put it somewhere in the line... I personally wouldn't put it where they show it.

water solenoid
It is pretty much a check valve. It has power going to it because it opens the same time the pump kicks on. This is better than a check valve because it does not allow for residual pressure of the water meth to come out when you close the throttle. This would be best to mount it closest to the intake as possible.
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Old 07-24-2015, 09:13 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flip View Post
Master switch
Just turns the spray on and off... No boost signal, no spray.
You don't need it, but it would be a good idea to put it somewhere in the line... I personally wouldn't put it where they show it.

water solenoid
It is pretty much a check valve. It has power going to it because it opens the same time the pump kicks on. This is better than a check valve because it does not allow for residual pressure of the water meth to come out when you close the throttle.
That is A good point. When the throttle is closed it could still see pressure and potentially leak into the intake is what your saying correct? I thought about this but also if the nozzle is upside down would this stop that from occuring much? I know it wouldnt take long for it to either rust out the throttle body or when the butterfly valve opens back up it could potentially flood the engine if there was enough correct?
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Old 07-24-2015, 09:29 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchwbr View Post
That is A good point. When the throttle is closed it could still see pressure and potentially leak into the intake is what your saying correct? I thought about this but also if the nozzle is upside down would this stop that from occuring much? I know it wouldnt take long for it to either rust out the throttle body or when the butterfly valve opens back up it could potentially flood the engine if there was enough correct?
Yes that is what I am saying, although I do not think you would even notice it, I do not think it could flood out your engine... When you close the throttle, the hose is still going to have positive pressure, as will the intercooler piping, so if any does actually come out, it would go toward the bov I would think.

In all actuality, I don't think you would have any problems with it. Lol maybe under a microscope. But anyways, that is what the solenoid is for, and in theory, would be best closest to the intercooler piping.
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Old 07-25-2015, 04:06 AM   #5 (permalink)
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It really all depends on how simple or complex you want to make it,


It can be done for under 30$ by using boost pressure as the "pump" but most don't want to run water through the turbo
and this dosen't work to well with an intercooler.but it is simple and effective.
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Old 07-25-2015, 05:50 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Using boost pressure is the super OG way. Its very cheap, but the atomization isnt very good because the pressure is so low, and you have to inject pre-turbo. Ive seen some evidence that poor atomization, pre-turbo, can damage the compressor blades because the droplets of water are so big that they hit the blades like little cannon balls.



Im curious about that second diagram. To me that looks like the pump runs full tilt and there is a valve there to prevent vacuum siphoning water. Either that or its pulseing the valve to create progressive injection.

The easiest/best way I know of is to use PWM control of the pump itself. This allows you to progressively inject water by controlling the speed of the pump.

Thats how the AEM system works:



Of course DIY PWM would be pretty easy, so you could theoretically use a devils own or snow kit and add PWM to it later.
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Old 07-25-2015, 12:10 PM   #7 (permalink)
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If you use a valve/nozzle similar to an air powered paint gun, it uses boost to atomize the H2O, not just nozzle shape. I've seen good results.
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Old 07-25-2015, 01:48 PM   #8 (permalink)
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the second diagram the pump is at full pressure and there is a "fast acting valve" controlled by a megasquirt ecu so its fully adjustable .,the valve also stops siphoning while in vacuum .
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Old 07-25-2015, 07:55 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Another dumb question is it necessary to raise the rate of which the water is injected like raise the base pressure of the pump or keep it the same? The way I see it you wouldnt use it until you really start to detonate, and at that time you can just go full blast. Would that full pressure and flow rate work throughout the RPM band or would you need to up the pressure as you increase boost so you dont flood out the engine with that instant shot of water?

Ive read about pre turbo injecting and the ''myths'' behind it mostly saying it will chip the compressor wheel but some people have said as long as the water is atomizing enough with a good nozzle it should be fine. ive never heard about using boost pressure as A pump going to read up on that.
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Old 07-26-2015, 05:29 AM   #10 (permalink)
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That wiring diagram has 1 to nean red wires.
The 85 should be a ground. The boost switch should out put ground when it hits boost pressure.

Or run a ground to 86 via switch, abd have the boost sensorr out output 12volts when triggered.

It also looks like the check valve is a solnoid like everyone said. To stop vac from sucking water out the line.

I dont see to much of a point in upping the flow of the pump per psi.
If anything the boost switch is a predetermen psi level.
So it only kicks on at say 15psi.
So you simply tune around that.

Now if you had a pusle setup. It would be like controling and injector.
Your ppulse the water solnoid open /close to change the amount of water coming out.

Its all about what you need the setup to do.

I need something like this for my ac lol.
A nice mist of water will drop the condeser temps making the cabain temps cooler faster. But im not paying $200 for that.
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Old 07-26-2015, 05:58 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Many people just use a boost switch where the pump goes full tilt at a certain pressure, like maybe 5 psi in the manifold.

The pump is putting out upwards of 300 psi, so the increase in pressure in the charge pipes is not going to decrease flow that much as the boost builds. But you would be correct in assuming that you will actually be injecting more water at low boost than high boost because of this.

The PWM of the pump is really easy, much easier than trying to get a solenoid to act reasonably. If anybody has ever tried to DIY progressive nitrous or build an electronic boost controller you will know what Im talking about. The duty cycle % has a non linear relationship with how much of whatever is being injected. The real problem is the solenoids dont always respond well to high frequencies and often times their seats will wear out from being slammed opened and closed to fast.

By controlling the speed of the pump you can have it ramp up with boost which saves water and prevents and power being lost in transition from injecting "too much" water.
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