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Old 05-20-2019, 05:55 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default RT4wd EF carrier bearings / center bearings / driveline vibration SOLVED

Hi DSO.

As anyone who owns an RT4wd wagon is probably aware, driveline vibrations are the devil. Luckily Rockford Driveline came to the party and now sell replacement U joints (430-10C is the part number), however that only solved part of the problem.

First, a bit of an explanation of what's going on. This 3 piece prop shaft is designed to be inline, where there is no designed angle of the U joints. Over time, this causes the needle bearings inside the caps of the U joint to wear a notch on the point where they spend all of their time positioned. This isn't a big deal, until you consider that the carrier bearing housings also sag over time, or in more extreme cases can tear. This creates an angle at the U joint, which means the u joint no longer spends all of its time on center, instead it 'pops' in and out of its worn center position and creates a nasty vibration. Also if the center bearing has sagged to the point where it's no longer suspended by the rubber (instead the inner section is touching the outer section) then the vibrations become much more noticeable.

Here's an example of a worn out carrier bearing housing:



So there's two things here. Replace the U joints to remove the worn needle bearings, and replace the carrier bearing housing to re align your prop shaft angles. Unfortunately your only option for the carrier bearing housing was to find another used less clapped out example, now you have the choice to instead buy a set of these:







See below thread in the for sale forum to purchase:

https://www.d-series.org/forums/sale...ml#post5154167
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Old 05-21-2019, 08:08 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Old 05-25-2019, 04:08 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Wow! This is fabulous! I know quite a few Wagovan RT4wd guys that would love to have these on their Wago's!
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Old 05-26-2019, 01:35 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Wow! This is fabulous! I know quite a few Wagovan RT4wd guys that would love to have these on their Wago's!
Be great if you could pass on the message <3

First batch of the CNC'd center housing arrived on Friday:





Still waiting on a couple more bits but they're coming along...
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Old 05-27-2019, 08:39 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Definately, count me in
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Old 05-30-2019, 02:03 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Last of the parts are in. Time for assembly

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Old 05-30-2019, 10:28 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Old 05-31-2019, 06:06 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Curious to see how well a single row ball bearing will hold up in that application.
The degrees of misalignment on a single row is very minimal and do not hold up to any thrust load at all. I know they should not see any thrust in this location but I would assume there is a tad bit of movement. Have you ran one for a while yet? If so how to they hold up?
My other concern is the bearing reaching operating temperature then the car hits mud or water. Which in turn gets pulled into the bearing causing it to seize and then of course failure. Have you looked at adding a extra seal? Possibly a single lip with a debris flinger to help keep contaminates away from the bearing?

It looks awesome and not trying to pick it apart just giving my views on it.
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Old 05-31-2019, 06:38 AM   #9 (permalink)
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There is an AWD conversion craze going on here in the states. Your product should sell like hot cakes, ship them with syrup.
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Old 05-31-2019, 10:38 AM   #10 (permalink)
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There is an AWD conversion craze going on here in the states. Your product should sell like hot cakes, ship them with syrup.
Exactly why I'm trying to get some while they are available..
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Old 05-31-2019, 11:19 AM   #11 (permalink)
 
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There is an AWD conversion craze going on here in the states. Your product should sell like hot cakes, ship them with syrup.
Somebody's been watching True Life: I'm a Street Racer.

Regarding the bearings. Nearly every NTN bearing is available with a seal and/or a shield. If debris is a problem the bearing should be cheap enough to replace and upgrade.

Good stuff.
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Old 05-31-2019, 01:34 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Regarding the bearings. Nearly every NTN bearing is available with a seal and/or a shield. If debris is a problem the bearing should be cheap enough to replace and upgrade.
I'm in the Bearing PT business I know exactly what NTN, Koyo, SKF, FAG, INA, Timken, ETC all have to offer.
But if he is engineering it and it allows why not add an extra single lip seal to each side just like the factory one had for a bit of insurance?
I under stand cost and cost savings as well as the ease of replacing the bearing. But 2 x $3.00 seals could easily double the life of his product.

He could also add those items to a possible rebuild kit in the future to bring in a little more GP%
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Old 06-01-2019, 12:24 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 79hilux90crx View Post
I'm in the Bearing PT business I know exactly what NTN, Koyo, SKF, FAG, INA, Timken, ETC all have to offer.
But if he is engineering it and it allows why not add an extra single lip seal to each side just like the factory one had for a bit of insurance?
I under stand cost and cost savings as well as the ease of replacing the bearing. But 2 x $3.00 seals could easily double the life of his product.

He could also add those items to a possible rebuild kit in the future to bring in a little more GP%
I agree.
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Old 06-01-2019, 06:42 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 79hilux90crx View Post
Curious to see how well a single row ball bearing will hold up in that application.
The degrees of misalignment on a single row is very minimal and do not hold up to any thrust load at all. I know they should not see any thrust in this location but I would assume there is a tad bit of movement. Have you ran one for a while yet? If so how to they hold up?
My other concern is the bearing reaching operating temperature then the car hits mud or water. Which in turn gets pulled into the bearing causing it to seize and then of course failure. Have you looked at adding a extra seal? Possibly a single lip with a debris flinger to help keep contaminates away from the bearing?

It looks awesome and not trying to pick it apart just giving my views on it.
No problem.

The OEM carrier bearing uses a single row ball bearing, and i haven't heard of anyone having issues with the bearing wearing out. The material that's cast is quite flexible and can reduce the effects of misalignment, however they are bolted next to U joint which will prevent angled loading due to misaligned installation.

There is minimal thrust load on the 2 carrier bearing assemblies that hold up the prop shaft (the motor is separated from the carriers by a slide joint)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquafina View Post

Regarding the bearings. Nearly every NTN bearing is available with a seal and/or a shield. If debris is a problem the bearing should be cheap enough to replace and upgrade.

Good stuff.
These bearings are sealed both sides (LLU - full contact dual lip sealing ideal for use around water/dirt), and maintain the OEM slide fit into the center housing (retained by a circlip) so the bearing can be serviced if it does fail in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 79hilux90crx View Post
I'm in the Bearing PT business I know exactly what NTN, Koyo, SKF, FAG, INA, Timken, ETC all have to offer.
But if he is engineering it and it allows why not add an extra single lip seal to each side just like the factory one had for a bit of insurance?
I under stand cost and cost savings as well as the ease of replacing the bearing. But 2 x $3.00 seals could easily double the life of his product.

He could also add those items to a possible rebuild kit in the future to bring in a little more GP%

The CNC'd inner housing has been sized to allow you to re use the OEM dust seals on both sides of the housings to prevent water ingress.

It's a good point about offering them though, cheers.
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Old 06-01-2019, 06:47 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I've gotten quite a bit of interest for these and so i'm going to be taking pre-orders so people can guarantee themselves one of the 10 sets.

Please see the original post for updated details. As an update, the outer housings have been assembled:



Off to get powdercoated next.
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Old 06-02-2019, 01:40 PM   #16 (permalink)
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2 sets sold.

Post updated.
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Old 06-04-2019, 02:13 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Another set sold, post updated.
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Old 06-05-2019, 05:00 AM   #18 (permalink)
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The CNC'd inner housing has been sized to allow you to re use the OEM dust seals on both sides of the housings to prevent water ingress.

It's a good point about offering them though, cheers.

Okay good to hear you can use the seals on both side I believe it will help with the life of the bearing.

Which is great for the consumer not so great for the guy trying to sale replacement parts.

I would much rather sale a higher quality item than make my money on repair parts.

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Old 06-06-2019, 01:00 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I would much rather sale a higher quality item them make my money on repair parts.
For sure.

Outer housings back from powdercoat:

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Old 06-07-2019, 04:32 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Looking good !
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