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Old 12-12-2016, 06:34 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Anyone got GM HEI module info for civics?

There is a very popular mod for mazda/ford 4cyl and 6cyl engines of the 80s and 90s, and that is using a cheap but reliable GM HEI ignition module in place of the factory import garbage


I am curious if there are any users on here that have seen someone perform a similar swap for any acura/honda


The ignitors are $15-$25 locally, and my buddy did it on his Ford Probe 2.5 V6 with great results. Better startup, much longer life of the ignitor, and overall a much easier maintenance setup.

The only downside to this ignitor swap is the GM module requires grounding through one of its mounting holes, and controlling the heat, whether that is a heatsink mounted, or the module itself mounted to a slab of aluminum for cooling.



Very tired of dealing with ignition problems on my car, and its always been the ignition module.

here is a reasonable writeup for mazda/ford v6
ProjectMazda :: HEI Ignition Module install

here is some more info
**2.3 wiring diagram** | WeCrash Demolition Derby Message Board

I like how it was hidden inside an aluminum box


and yet another resource
Project: HEI Module & External Coil Install - Mazda MX-6 Forum





What I am trying to gather is the info on where to make my cuts and connections.


I am thinking of going external coil as well.




The future goal? strong reliable spark that can be transferred from acura/honda to acura/honda. This of course means I will be trying to keep the wiring shit concentrated to the distributor side




THOUGHTS??
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Old 12-12-2016, 06:41 AM   #2 (permalink)
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disty.jpg Photo by emxsix | Photobucket

another picture diagram.

Off to read some wiring diagrams to try and figure this out

Im a dummy though, so wiring diagrams are always a bit of a chore for me to understand.
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Old 12-12-2016, 08:17 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Are you making sure your ICM has a good tight, clean mating to the dizzy case and you are using thermal paste between the case and ICM? Those things can overheat and cause early failure and other issues. It cools by its connection to the dizzy case, if that is messed up you will have issues.

GM HEI was a great back in the mid 70s when points ignition was the standard setup. But unless you are talking about something much newer and more specific I cant imagine it could be as good as what your honda came with from the factory.
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Old 12-12-2016, 08:55 AM   #4 (permalink)
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yes, my ICM installs are always with cleaning and thermal paste application.

The 4 pin GM HEI module was used into the 90s

VERY popular use for 93-97 ford probe v6 owners, as it solves the super common ignition issues, and IMPROVES ignition performance.

This is a viable option for us, and considering its a walk in $20 versus dealership $200, very much worth investigating
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Old 12-12-2016, 10:50 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattliston View Post
yes, my ICM installs are always with cleaning and thermal paste application.

The 4 pin GM HEI module was used into the 90s

VERY popular use for 93-97 ford probe v6 owners, as it solves the super common ignition issues, and IMPROVES ignition performance.

This is a viable option for us, and considering its a walk in $20 versus dealership $200, very much worth investigating
I dont disagree that it is worth investigating, but stock D/B series ignitions are very good for stock ignitions. Something that is a massive upgrade for a stock mid 90s probe ignition could easily be a significant downgrade for a stock mid 90s honda, so I wouldnt assume it was an upgrade until you have done some research.
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Old 12-12-2016, 11:16 AM   #6 (permalink)
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our stock ignition systems suck donkey balls.

In 15 years, Ive never seen a honda go over 50k miles without some sort of ignition work.

Ive had an ebay ICM last 100k miles, but shit out coils and plugs.

Ive had OEM coil last 200k miles, but shit out ICM's every year.

Ive had a civic that for whatever reason shit plugs every 3-6 months, but needed nothing else.

Its just a constant trail of money here and there.

Why not kill one more potential failure?


Keep in mind, these GM modules are designed to run a v8 with big plug gaps over 6k rpms, and do it for years.


I would imagine a small gap 4cyl honda will put nearly zero stress on the HEI module.


My beater car doesnt deserve regular work, and if I can create a very cheap failure solution, why not?
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Old 12-12-2016, 12:37 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattliston View Post
our stock ignition systems suck donkey balls.

In 15 years, Ive never seen a honda go over 50k miles without some sort of ignition work.

Ive had an ebay ICM last 100k miles, but shit out coils and plugs.

Ive had OEM coil last 200k miles, but shit out ICM's every year.

Ive had a civic that for whatever reason shit plugs every 3-6 months, but needed nothing else.

Its just a constant trail of money here and there.

Why not kill one more potential failure?


Keep in mind, these GM modules are designed to run a v8 with big plug gaps over 6k rpms, and do it for years.


I would imagine a small gap 4cyl honda will put nearly zero stress on the HEI module.


My beater car doesnt deserve regular work, and if I can create a very cheap failure solution, why not?
I cant say my experience matches yours, because personally I have never seen a honda ICM or coil go bad, not saying it doesnt happen, because I have inherited bad ones, but never had one fail myself. I have had a couple bearing failures that wiped out a dizzy, but the only electronics failure I have experienced was due to bad wiring on my part. But hey, if it is a problem for you go for it, I would love to know how it turns out and how costly and difficult the conversion was.
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Old 12-12-2016, 01:13 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Well, Ive decided I need a new ICM. I have to wait til tax time to buy an OEM icm, but I figure maybe a $20 part plus wiring can be a solution.

Ive got plenty of aluminum heatsinks laying around from the computer bin.


Strange you have never experienced electrical ignition problems. Ive actually never had a bearing go bad lol
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Old 12-12-2016, 01:51 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattliston View Post
Strange you have never experienced electrical ignition problems. Ive actually never had a bearing go bad lol
Be glad, it can go very bad very fast. Bearing goes bad, hopefully you throw some weird dizzy related codes as the shaft grinds into the sensors, not long after that your cam grinds to a halt and your lower end keeps spinning. Not pretty.
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Old 12-12-2016, 03:25 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Well, this is kind of ackward.

Was bitching about my car over facebook, and an old friend messaged me and offered up a brand new unused OEM TD80U for $150 for me.

YES PLEASE!!!!


Guess this thread got more interesting. When she sends me the distributor, I will have my factory TD98U to fuck around with.

Dunno why honda had the td80u in 96, but td98u for the 97 and 98 years, but whatever, should work.


Now I can really get deep into the GM ignitor swap without any chance of downtime!!
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Old 12-14-2016, 07:50 AM   #11 (permalink)
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stolen from some megasquirt sites.

Quote:
Ground Triggered Logic Level

Rule of thumb: If it’s a Honda and has a distributor, use this.

A much rarer sort of ignition module, but examples that do this include the Bosch 139, most Hondas, and the MSD 6AL also falls into this category if you have its white wire connected directly to the DIYPNP (If you have it connected to a stock ignition module, base your mods on what the stock ignition module would need). A ground triggered ignition module doesn’t run the coil current through the ECU, but instead it pulls a signal on the factory ignition module to ground.

Spark output must be set to Going High / Inverted.
Quote:
The 4-pin HEI module is based on a Motorola integrated circuit (IC) chip, the Motorola MC3334. This IC automatically determines the needed dwell to "just complete" the charge to the coil at spark time. The coil current is started at that 'charge time' before the descending zero crossing of the pickup signal when the current is cut off and the spark is produced. The coil current is internally limited to a 6-7 Amp range. The coil is only supplied current during this charge time so it cannot over heat from steady state current and/or excessive charge time.

The dwell time is constant over the entire rpm range, unlike the old points design where dwell was shorter as rpm increased.

The result is that the coil current is a 'rising ramp' that peaks at the time of spark firing with little or no flat topping of current. Thus no high resistance coil and/or external coil resistor is needed or desired, just match the coil based on the current needed for proper spark energy.

The 4-pin module can also be driven with a 6V or higher voltage square wave from a Hall effect or optical sensor pick up. A Hall effect with a pull up resistor using the same 12V (as the module) is used in many auto engine powered experimental aircraft. It looks at the input wave form as average alternating current (AC) and uses the falling signal as the 'zero crossing' firing trigger.

Here is how to wire it up. The four HEI module terminals are labeled W, G, B and C.

W = positive lead (+) from the pickup
G = negative lead (-) from the pickup
C = negative side (-) of the coil
B = positive side (+) of the coil
don't think it will work .

honda fires the coil at signal going high
hei module fire the coil when signal going low
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Old 12-14-2016, 11:08 AM   #12 (permalink)
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someone used a bosch 139 module in place of the GM HEI in this article. both ran.

https://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo..._ignition.html


also, the GM HEI module wants a pullup resistor in place, so that should fix the signal difference.



The biggest reason for trying this? works for those mazda/ford v6's. they have a similar ignition system to us as far as voltages, timing, etc.. as far as my untrained brain can tell.
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Old 12-14-2016, 01:32 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mattliston View Post
someone used a bosch 139 module in place of the GM HEI in this article. both ran.

https://www.brickboard.com/RWD/volvo..._ignition.html


also, the GM HEI module wants a pullup resistor in place, so that should fix the signal difference.



The biggest reason for trying this? works for those mazda/ford v6's. they have a similar ignition system to us as far as voltages, timing, etc.. as far as my untrained brain can tell.

well then,
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Old 12-14-2016, 03:44 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by robgoof View Post
well then,
guess we all shall find out when my distributor is delivered.

Then Ill have one new OEM disty running the car, while I take my 170k mile OEM disty out for an HEI makeover



If I can get this working, man! It will save a lot of people money who only daily drive their civics in stock form

Plus, the fireball HEI 4pin is a serious module, and only $50, so we would have the option down the road to properly fire a 100k volt coil
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Old 12-15-2016, 03:44 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mattliston View Post
guess we all shall find out when my distributor is delivered.

Then Ill have one new OEM disty running the car, while I take my 170k mile OEM disty out for an HEI makeover



If I can get this working, man! It will save a lot of people money who only daily drive their civics in stock form

Plus, the fireball HEI 4pin is a serious module, and only $50, so we would have the option down the road to properly fire a 100k volt coil


now I wanna
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Old 12-15-2016, 03:59 AM   #16 (permalink)
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cuz of potentially running the 100k ignition coils? Yeah,. that excited me alot when I saw it. there are the cheap but trusty $8 modules on ebay, and even upwards of $120 for a serious racing atmosphere module.

and we only 4 cylinders lol, half the stress of that module.
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Old 12-15-2016, 01:55 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I retrofitted my distributor with a GM HEI module and a Chrysler pick up coil this year (converted to HEI). Unfortunately for this forum, it was for my C10 pickup to replace the points.
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Old 12-16-2016, 06:08 AM   #18 (permalink)
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BOOM.

EDIT, if someone cannot see the picture, the ICM is shown, with the tach signal (4th tab) on far right, the 3rd tab is coil neg, 2nd is battery voltage/coil positive, then signal/input (1st tab). All grounded of course from mounting bolts

Also, new distributor showed up.

as I feared, it is not an OEM distributor.

has a new DENSO ignition module, and an old TC-08A honda coil inside.

cannot be too much garbage, it does have that denso module working for it.

regardless, with the picture above, I will now swap disty's so I have a good running car, and begin converting my old distributor to GM HEI 4 pin, and I think I will go extarnal coil as well, since the module will be outside anyways.

12 gauge coil wiring, a relay and battery-fed ignition coil, and i think it will be a solid SOLID performing setup.

Tune in for updates either in this thread, or a DIY thread if I decide its worth dealing with 0-10 degree temps. I might just hash it out, and simply show a result. who knows, I am an impulsive person
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Last edited by mattliston; 12-16-2016 at 06:11 AM.
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Old 12-16-2016, 06:18 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Looking forward to this.
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Old 12-16-2016, 08:19 AM   #20 (permalink)
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project on hold while I scratch my head and wonder why I received a B series distributor. Or accord. I dont know.

the triangle of the mounting bolts is totally opposite of the civics. Not a single ear lines up without a massive rotation. But still, only one.

I think I am gonna steal the ICM and coil out of it, and at least have a reliable car. I dont think it was intentionally wrong
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