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Old 09-13-2007, 06:50 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Couple of HMT related questions.

My buddy and I are putting together some turbo kits..
He's got a Mini-me, around 10:1 compression, going hardcore HMT style with the HF manifold and whatnot, but he is talking about not running an intercooler and using colder (7) range plugs to compensate for it. I was skeptical at first, but since he's only going to run 7psi, it crossed my mind that IAT wouldn't be that high, and detonation might not be that prevalent

My tuner has a JRSC B17, and he has an average IAT of around 130*F. He said thats on the high end of the spectrum, as we all know that the blowers create more heat. Will the turbocharger heat the air the same amount as the JRSC kit, at the same PSI? Does anyone have experience with IAT's and turbo pressure?
Is it safe for a DD to run w/o an intercooler at only 7psi?

That leads me to my second question. My friend, going the hardcore HMT route, wants to run PVC piping as his charge piping. It will only be about 4' total length, with just a couple 90*'s keeping it simple.
Will PVC piping melt under the heated temp of the charged air? I have NO idea what it's melting/warping point is, but I doubt it's going to be very affected by ~130*F...

I've got to go out to lunch now, but those were the few questions on my mind right now... I'll post some up later as they come up.

Thanks
-Andrew
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Old 09-13-2007, 06:57 AM   #2 (permalink)
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i would NEVER run a turbo without an IC, ever...

i have seen PVC piping work, but only on the cold side of the IC. i would be very skeptical of PVC connecting directly to the snail
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Old 09-13-2007, 06:57 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Not running an intercooler is stupid...it doesn't cost much at all to buy one off e-bay. You probably wont even need a very big one.

And again, there is no reason to cheap out and buy pvc. You can get aluminum piping kits off e-bay for cheap as hell.
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Old 09-13-2007, 07:15 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Old 09-13-2007, 08:10 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Like I said, he was just talking about doing it. I was just wondering about the pro's and con's.

Can anyone give me a proven reason not to run an intercooler?


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Do it right, or don't do it at all.
Not to be very argumentative, but I do not agree in that statement at all.
There are lots of different ways to do things. if we all did the same thing, life would suck and be very boring.

Like I said, it just crossed his mind, thinking he could save a quick buck (actually a LOT of money) by doing something different.

I honestly can't think of any issues that would arise from PVC piping, at least on the cold side... What about the Hot side? Why wouldn't it work?


Please remember this isn't for me. I'm running a FMIC and metal piping, but my friend is a cheapo
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Old 09-13-2007, 08:11 AM   #6 (permalink)
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IMO, use an intercooler, don't use pvc piping. just get one of those cheap kits off egay and make your own.
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Old 09-13-2007, 08:20 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Not to be very argumentative, but I do not agree in that statement at all.
There are lots of different ways to do things. if we all did the same thing, life would suck and be very boring.
I see where you're coming from, but I think you sort of misinterpreted my comment.

I'm not saying you need to follow other people's builds; you're more than welcome to do things differently. My point was that cutting corners in order to cut costs could easily bite you in the ass, and in that case, you might as well save your money and not do it at all.

Plus, sometimes "we all" do some things a certain way for a reason. Would you not use not use a condom to be different?


For example, no, you don't NEED an intercooler, but for the price, don't you think it's worth it?
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Old 09-13-2007, 09:09 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Yep I agree, if your going to turbo your car, don't waste your money on things you know is going to break(I.E. SSAC mani's). But theres something to be said for trying something out. if it works, it works
I told him I think it might present problems if he uses the PVC piping, but he's the kind of guy that just needs to learn from his mistakes. he's got such a big head... theres no sense in trying to prove your point.

As far as the intercooler, I know for a fact that I'll be using one, and I've told him a few times that he should go ahead and run with one... so we'll see who's setup lasts longest

Thanks for the posts guys.
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Old 09-13-2007, 09:18 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Old 09-13-2007, 10:40 AM   #10 (permalink)
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a buddy of mine ran 10 psi on a 14b with no intercooler and pvc piping from the turbo to the throttle body for a long time and somehow never had any problems and it never blew up on a D15b7...hell he even sprayed a 50 shot threw it every once in a while.
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:01 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Ok...I see a LOT of problems with your buddy's HMT plans.

1) Yes, you CAN boost a car w/o using an intercooler...HOWEVER, your intake temps will be in the upper 100's/low 200's. An intercooler DOES make a HUGE difference. I ran non-intercooled @ 5psi for about a year and when I added the intercooler, I probably gained about 20hp JUST from that. Remember, colder air is denser and makes more power. If he DOES decide to go non-intercooled, DO NOT GO ABOVE 5PSI!!! Period. I don't care what he/you have heard about intercooled v. non-intercooled, but NO MORE than 5psi and he'd be "safe".

2) Going one heat range colder on the plugs has NOTHING to do DIRECTLY with running non-intercooled. If he were to run non-intercooled, the air charge would be MUCh hotter, and more susceptible to detonation: the BIGGEST ENEMY of a boosted car. Running the colder plug, would help to avoid detonation and misfires from blowing out plugs. I run 1 heat range colder in my Avenger and have the gap set to around .030-.032. Just running the colder plug will NOT cool the intake charge, nor prevent detonation.

3) Compressing the air creates the heat, doesn't matter if it's done via supercharger or turbocharger. When you compress air, it gets hotter...that's physics for you.

4) NEVER EVER EVER EVER use PVC piping as intercooler piping. Yes, it can physically withstand the heat, however it's not the proper thing to use. I've been TOLD that when it gets heated, it can emit a noxious gas, however I can neither confirm/deny that statement. Just buy yourself some mandrel bends (45, 90, and a couple of U's with 1-2' legs), some reinforced silicon couplings, and some quality clamps, and you're good to go. You can make a piping kit for under $100...EASILY.
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:25 AM   #12 (permalink)
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there are ebay piping kits with EVERYTHING, couplers, tbolt clamps, pipes, for 109 shipped all day long.

just do it right the first time..
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:58 AM   #13 (permalink)
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If this dude is considering not using an intercooler because of the lack of room in the bay, tell him to look into water/methanol injection. He could still use his beloved pvc, which is a great idea :fag:, and route it the same way, since it also sounds like he is affraid to cut/weld/fab a real set of chargepipes.

If it's because of cost, well, tell him to grow up. Or eat ramen for din-din for a week or two.
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Old 09-13-2007, 12:09 PM   #14 (permalink)
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there was a setup a while back that came up - it was a crx with an hf manifold running a t25 - straight to the TB without an IC - since he was running low boost - low hp goals - just more power - but i don't know where it is - the thread.

garretts turbo kits run without IC or BOV...
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Old 09-13-2007, 12:12 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Do it right, or don't do it at all.


i think this guy did it right.
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Old 09-13-2007, 12:18 PM   #16 (permalink)
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PVC, are you serious? IMO, thats just retarded. it can't be cheap enough that it's worth it.

You don't have to run an IC at low boost levels. Of course, it greatly reduces the chance of detonation by cooling the intake charge, making tuning a lot easier, and it gives you more HP. So, why not use an IC?! FFS, just get a cheap side mount IC for cheap, they don't cost that much.
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Old 09-13-2007, 12:19 PM   #17 (permalink)
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4) NEVER EVER EVER EVER use PVC piping as intercooler piping. Yes, it can physically withstand the heat, however it's not the proper thing to use. I've been TOLD that when it gets heated, it can emit a noxious gas, however I can neither confirm/deny that statement.
I forgot about that....

http://www.thegreenguide.com/doc/98/pipe
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Old 09-13-2007, 12:37 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Yes, a car can run turbo at 7 psi.
Seen on some diesel engines with no intercoolers.

But.

On Honda engines with no proper air cooling after turbo will max out to high temps very fast. So it's a good Idea to run a IC
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Old 09-13-2007, 12:38 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I've used the cheapo pvc piping as my charge pipes a while back. Only thing I can say is if it is not cemented right, then it will pop out. It did hold 8 psi on my s13 t25 turbo and yes I was using an evo intercooler. But I got tired of using it after one of my turbo starting spitting oil through due to blown seals which sucked. But I agree with most that you can get better ic piping for a cheap price nowadays especially in ebay.:bravo:
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Old 09-13-2007, 02:03 PM   #20 (permalink)
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will it work? YES
is it ideal? NO
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96 4 door. boosted
2004 Lexus IS300


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