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Old 02-10-2006, 12:48 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Dropping temperature effects

How much of a temperature drop for the intake air makes a difference? For instance, say you have a decent intercooler that cools your intake charge down to ~30C, a little bit above ambient temperature.

If you were able to cool that down by 5 degrees to 25C, would that make a big difference? Generate more power?

What about a 10 degree difference?? 30C going down to 20C?

How cool do the nitrous/intercooler sprayers get? I know the intercooler gets cold, but how cold is the air after it passes through it? And how much of a power gain is that?
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Old 02-10-2006, 01:12 AM   #2 (permalink)
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yeah this is a thing i have be poundering also, thinking of making a IC for a JRSC on a single ans see what happenes ya know!

from what people SAY it works awsome, i have herd great things from the NX people that run it, that cryo gen or whatever i dont think is n e good but idk either! i think it would give you a def gain when used if you can get one for the right price! i think its a great way to keep that shit cool and make power without a hurt in the world!

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Old 02-10-2006, 01:23 AM   #3 (permalink)
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You can just route canned air to your intake tube and freeze that bitch. Some dsm guys I know dump acetone on their IC's and they freeze over. Seems very dangerous but so is street racing. I was gonna use those air horn cans because they're easy to replace as they have a fitting on the end.

I still wanna know if anyone has an idea 'cause this could be very useful.
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Old 02-10-2006, 01:36 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by decev
You can just route canned air to your intake tube and freeze that bitch. Some dsm guys I know dump acetone on their IC's and they freeze over. Seems very dangerous but so is street racing. I was gonna use those air horn cans because they're easy to replace as they have a fitting on the end.

I still wanna know if anyone has an idea 'cause this could be very useful.
thats because they drive DSM DUMB SHITTY MOTOR"S! that all about those SMART ONES!

the air horn is also wat diffrent from like keyboard/duster cleaner ! and for the DUSTER air can its AIR in a can NOT N2o there is a very bigg diffrence! a can MAYBE maybe drops the temp for a few degreees but how the fuck are you going to race and spracy canned air in your intake or intercooler? lmfao a toggle switch NOPE!

i would much much rather have the IC cooler than a can off duster at a car meet!



WAIT i sec befor we race! i got air can power!
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Old 02-10-2006, 01:45 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Not into. it freezes the exterior. You need to read closer before you flame buddy. I would hate to negatively rep you as you are so young here.
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Old 02-10-2006, 01:58 AM   #6 (permalink)
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let's get back to the topic:

do temperature drops of 10 degrees make a difference? 30C vs 20C?
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Old 02-10-2006, 02:02 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by decev
Not into. it freezes the exterior. You need to read closer before you flame buddy. I would hate to negatively rep you as you are so young here.

im not flamming or bashing just making my point! thats right it does the outside so it really doesnt do enough to cool the intake charge if that cold or FROZEN air isnt reaching the air going into the motor. i mean if its like that, just go buy like 10-15 cold flexable ice packs and wrap the on ur intake or IC piping! what im saying is a air horn makes lou noise NOT COLD AIR like u said! and duster/key board cleaner isnt affective enough to spend 5 bucks a can to spray on the outside or in the filter, just not worth it! a IC is like a radiator and the N20 travles through the vent/fans of the IC making is work!

you catch my drift, im here in peace but you got to make a good point if you dont want a smart kinda remark, i am sorry if you or n e one is harmed or hurt by what i said and im not here to bash we are all D lovers let alone honda gods so i so sowwy! forgive me bro!

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Old 02-10-2006, 04:16 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makku
let's get back to the topic:

do temperature drops of 10 degrees make a difference? 30C vs 20C?
I'm sure every bit helps.

I wonder if you could use the ideal gas law to calculate the difference for a rough approximation?
PV=nRT keeping everything constant with the only variable being temperture, just solve for moles.
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Old 02-10-2006, 04:32 AM   #9 (permalink)
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well, if you're starting at 30C, a little above ambient temperature, a 10 degree (celcius) drop would give you a 3.3% increase in mass of oxygen. However, that doesn't take into account the possible drop in pressure.

if you compare that to a turbocharger at 8psi or so... that's about a 50% increase in mass of oxygen (if temperature is constant). This is a VERY simplistic view of things, but I wonder if the scale is at least correct.

So my question still is: does dropping the temp a few degrees celcius (which means more degrees F) increase power significantly? or does it simply mean less detonation?
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Old 02-10-2006, 04:56 AM   #10 (permalink)
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makku, based what you are asking, i can only hypothosis, and come up with a theory...and that would be, you will acheive less chance for detonation, meaning easier to tune, and if you can constantly cool the charge at that range you will be able to have more tuning room, meaning possibly less retardation...also since the air is cooler it can be denser meaning the old time favorite saying, more air = more power...i'm going to say you might get up to a 10% increase in power with proper tuning based on a controlled tempreature range...
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Old 02-10-2006, 06:32 AM   #11 (permalink)
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i'd have to say yes because a vehicle with say a side or top mount intercooler will see power gains by adding a front mount, which cools air down much more than a sidemount...

90-99 eclipse, WRX, wrx sti, turbo jetta/gti.... etc
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Old 02-10-2006, 06:53 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SOHC_Rules
i'd have to say yes because a vehicle with say a side or top mount intercooler will see power gains by adding a front mount, which cools air down much more than a sidemount...

90-99 eclipse, WRX, wrx sti, turbo jetta/gti.... etc

ok, but what does "much more" equal to? I've never heard any actual numbers for temperature.
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Old 02-10-2006, 07:05 AM   #13 (permalink)
 
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There is no set value as there are too many variables as different engines have different VEs and such. You will see increases. 10*F I could see a gain in torque of roughly 2-3%. A cheap way of looking at this is looking at the IAT correction in the stock ECU table. From about 50* to about 100* the ECU only changes the fuel by 5%. So you can see its not a super significant difference.

I should mention I find it very unlikely you are going to drop the IATs another 30*c(86*F) post intercooler. Lets say your outlet temps from the turbo are roughly 250* and your IATs are 90*. I could see you then dropping the IATs another 10-20* but another 86* puts the IATs at roughly 4*F. If you do it, its not going to be cost effective, realistic, or anything of that nature.
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Old 02-10-2006, 07:23 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigwig
There is no set value as there are too many variables as different engines have different VEs and such. You will see increases. 10*F I could see a gain in torque of roughly 2-3%. A cheap way of looking at this is looking at the IAT correction in the stock ECU table. From about 50* to about 100* the ECU only changes the fuel by 5%. So you can see its not a super significant difference.

I should mention I find it very unlikely you are going to drop the IATs another 30*c(86*F) post intercooler. Lets say your outlet temps from the turbo are roughly 250* and your IATs are 90*. I could see you then dropping the IATs another 10-20* but another 86* puts the IATs at roughly 4*F. If you do it, its not going to be cost effective, realistic, or anything of that nature.
thanks, this was a good post. As for dropping it by 30 degrees C, yeah, I agree that's way too much to do efficiently. That's why I was asking about 10 degrees celcius. I wasn't quite sure what standard temps coming out of intercoolers were so I guess-timated it at 30 C. Which is probably a little low.

for the IAT correction in the ecu tables, you are right. The ecu doesn't see it as a big change, but we're also talking about atmospheric pressure or partial vacuum. You're increasing the mass of air with a turbo, so temperature effects might be multiplied since you have more air at a colder temp.
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Old 02-10-2006, 09:49 AM   #15 (permalink)
 
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Oops, I misread and thought you said a 30*C drop not a 10*C drop. Also my initial number is totally wrong. I knew it looked wrong but I didnt figure out why. 30*c drop would be roughly 54*F drop and a 10*c drop would be 18*F so lets just correct that information.

There are various calcs available to give you good estimates on temperatures pre and post intercooler. http://not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml Thats the one i use. It gives you a basic idea of whats going on. fiddling with variables gives you a range of values. It works pretty well for giving you a solid idea. If you simply fiddle with intercooler efficiency you can see the impact of temperature gains/drops.
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