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Old 04-29-2016, 02:58 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default D16 turbo detonation issues

Hey guys,
In the last few month I was building my setup, bit by bit, there were some issues around the way but now I think I can say the the car is ready to turn on boost and see what is the limits of this setup.

My setup so far:

D16 VTEC SOHC
King bearings
Eagle + CP 9:1 75.5 combo
Injector nation 900cc ev14 bosch style
Stock IM
Ebay cast iron turbo mani + Ebay T3/T4 trim 50/63
2.5" downpipe + 2.5" straight exhaust piping with ibiza fr back muffler
Aeromotive FPR
GM 3bar map
Greddy rs bov
Walbro 255 fuel pump
FMIC
Hallman MBC
BKR7E-11 plugs gapped

Everythink seems in place and work fine, up to 7.5 PSI.
I've tried to crank the boost a little more, to 10 PSI, but the engine starts to knock at this point. It seems like only if I retard igintion as much as I feel a huge power loss, it stops kncking.
AFRs at full boost are between 11.5-12.2

And I wonder, what the heck is going on now? What should I do to prevent detonation?

I was thinking about going one step colder plug, water injection, swap cylinder head gasket to a thicker ones, etc.

Just don't know what the heck causing the engine to knock, and how to fix it.

I've read pretty much about the detonation/pre-ignition thing, but I'm just trying to focus on my specific setup, and ask you guys to make your opinion on this one.

Thanks alot.
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Old 04-29-2016, 04:14 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Mapping?
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Old 04-29-2016, 04:19 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Car is tuned, AFRs all in place, can't advance ignition to make power, the engine is knocking.
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Turbo Ibiza muffler
Greddy type s BOV
P28 street tuned
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Old 04-29-2016, 07:22 AM   #4 (permalink)
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how much are you retarding?
what octane of gas are you using?
what is your pcv setup?
who tune it and did they tune it for 7psi or 10psi?
Spark plug gap?
Have you check your plugs to see if your rich or lean?
a misfire can show lean even tho your very rich.
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Old 04-29-2016, 07:34 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Post your ignition map and data logs during the detonation events.
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Old 04-29-2016, 09:39 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I tune it.
For the 1st and 2nd pulls it runs ok. From there on, it knock under full boost.
I'm using a catch can setupwith a breather, one input line from head cover, and the other from crankcase (from the black box).
I'm using premium unleaded fuel, 98 octane.
Gap is around .025.
Today I took the spark plugs off and seen some difference between them, pics attached, right is first plug and left is the 4th ones. If you pay close attention, you may see that the first plug is somewhat bright with wired dots on it.
Is it possible for a missfire to cause a detonation?

I'll post maps and datalogs soon.
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Ebay turbo T3/T4 - A/R 50. boost ~ 0.5 bar
TIAL wastegate
Ebay Exhaust manifold + 2.5" straight pipe
Turbo Ibiza muffler
Greddy type s BOV
P28 street tuned
RC550 injectors
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Old 04-29-2016, 04:26 PM   #7 (permalink)
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You could try cleaning up the plugs, then swapping them round to see if the dots reappear on the original plug or the 'new' one in the relevant cylinder. This will at least tell you if one of your plugs is iffy.
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Old 04-29-2016, 04:50 PM   #8 (permalink)
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you are hitting 12.2 under boost?

geez. drop it down to 11:1 and try upping the timing then.

my 2013 Fit ran 11:1 afr from the factory, and that was NA and still getting me 35-40mpg

11:1 is still a good afr, not too rich, and has room to grow. also cools the combustion chamber down a bit.

at the very least, verify no oil or coolant is making itself into the chamber
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Old 04-30-2016, 06:25 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I already tried riching up the boost area but the engine still knocked. But I'll try it again with more attention on reaching 11:1 goal.

As for the spark plugs, I replaced them with another set and will check soon what happens.

Anyways, it's very intersting to know what those dots are. Anyone have any idea? Maybe it's a injectors related issue? I suspect one or more of the injectors may be leaner/not spraying well then other, causing two plugs to be brighter than the others, and make the engine detonate.
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Turbo Ibiza muffler
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RC550 injectors
S20 B000 tranny

Last edited by JRSC_D16; 04-30-2016 at 06:27 AM.
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Old 04-30-2016, 07:06 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I have read quite a few of the turbo threads in my years of struggling to finally build one (till working on it lol). just seems anything above 11.5:1 while under boost is a rare thing to see.

maybe its time to pop a plug out and check the piston and see if its full of carbon?

hot spots are bad spots!!

as for spots on plug strap, I have torched fouled plugs before, and spots came up like that. the straps are not perfectly dense metal. that is not to say exactly what yours have, but those are simply very similar to my results of trying to save a set of 500 mile plugs for a customer
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Old 04-30-2016, 07:22 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Pretty cocky for needing help.. It's like your ignoring us while continuing to tell us what you think.
"It's already tuned" makes you sound ignorant..

If you Need 11:1 to prevent knock... wow. You're running too much damn timing, look at the ground strap.

I bet your exhaust valve guides are shot, leaking 0 octane oil into the CC, but thats another story.

I've seen detonation propagate from letters on the stock valves "A8", letters on the pistons, valve reliefs, overhanging HG/CC, but usually not from the carbon itself..


"Just don't know what the heck causing the engine to knock, and how to fix it.

I've read pretty much about the detonation/pre-ignition thing"

^^Isn't that a contradiction?

+1 Patrick/Sailor...

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Old 04-30-2016, 08:21 AM   #12 (permalink)
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TheToaster, By saying that it's already tuned, I mean that it's tuned as for my prespective. If I would be an ignorant, I wouldn't ask you for advise. Of course something is wrong with my setup/what I'm doing, and that's what I'm trying to find. Anyways I took it to a professional to make sure the problem isn't laying on the tune. He could be managed to stop the detonation issues just after he retarded ignition so much, that the car felt really weak, exactly just like I did before. This is just a temp fix of course. He advised me to put a intake water injection system. But I want make sure that everything is good with the motor and this is the only way to fix the problem.

Why do you think that my valve guides are shot? Those are the consequences of detonation, or the opposite?

When I look inside the cylinder with spark plugs removed, I see that the piston Is pretty black.

There was a point, before the car got tuned, that it ran really rich even at idle. It was a few hundreds km ago. Maybe this is the cause, and maybe it's something else like leaking valve guides or something like that. There is anything I can do to clean up the piston?

mattliston, What you mean is that overheating is the what made my spark plug look like that? The question is, why only one sprk plug look like this?

Soon I'll datalog a boost run and upload it.
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Ebay turbo T3/T4 - A/R 50. boost ~ 0.5 bar
TIAL wastegate
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Turbo Ibiza muffler
Greddy type s BOV
P28 street tuned
RC550 injectors
S20 B000 tranny

Last edited by JRSC_D16; 04-30-2016 at 09:10 AM. Reason: Added stuff
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Old 04-30-2016, 08:23 AM   #13 (permalink)
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if you do a bit of reading on valve guides and hondas, you will find even a grandma driven crx with 40k miles would have bad valve guides.

replacing them at a shop where nothing is mass produced generally solves the problem for much much longer than hodna factory will.
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Old 04-30-2016, 08:56 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Is there any way to check it without removing head?
I have a catch can and sometimes there is smoke coming out of the breather. I tought the it's because the big gaped pistons (.004") and piston rings (.016"), maybe it's the valve guides?

Is it possible to clean up the pistons?
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Ebay turbo T3/T4 - A/R 50. boost ~ 0.5 bar
TIAL wastegate
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Turbo Ibiza muffler
Greddy type s BOV
P28 street tuned
RC550 injectors
S20 B000 tranny

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Old 04-30-2016, 09:51 AM   #15 (permalink)
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easiest way to check for oil leaking from valvetrain into chamber is to get to a hill, and coast down in a low gear to have rpms higher. coast as long as you can. then at bottom of hill, hit the throttle and if she puffs a lot of smoke, but clears up, it is a solid indication of guide or stem leakage.

stems are easier and can cover up the guide leaks for awhile until you send the head to be repaired. but the head MUST be repaired if you want to really take care of it.


for pistons, I replicate a headgasket leak and spray water down the thrtottle body or suck it threw the brake booster hose in small bursts/sips until I have gone through at least half a gallon of water.


you do it slowly. you do it carefully. and make sure you are doing it on a HOT motor. a cold motor will reject it, and the low thermals will not allow the cleaning effect.


you effectively are steam cleaning the intake manifold and combustion chamber. once they are cleaning it also can help clean cat converters somewhat, and o2 sensors.

be aware I will NOT be responsible for any damage. I simply am telling you what I personally do. if you are foolish with this technique you will grenade the motor. if you take your time and do baby steps, the worst outcome is simply light cleaning
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Old 04-30-2016, 11:43 PM   #16 (permalink)
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After swapping the spark plugs for another set I had laying around, I've gone to a drive and made some pulls. I noticed slight knock on the second runs, I didn't want to push the motor any futher with the timing, so that's it for now.
The ignition map is based on stock ignition, and is retarded by 0.8deg/pound of boost.

Couldn't notice any difference between the spark plugs after this drive, they all were at the same color and no dots noticed on the 1st plug.

Another thing, when I took the spark plugs off, I was taking a look inside the CC. The piston surface looked pretty black, so I took a smooth finished thin rod and scrubbed the top of the piston gently, to find out the it's coated with a thin layer of oil. May it be a path for the problem? Is ther any other way to check the valve guides other then driving it downhill? I don't really have long hills aorund where I live.

Attached maps and datalog from my last drive.
Please delete the .bin extention and open zip file.
Tuned by crome gold dealer 1.6.15
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Front big intercooler
Ebay turbo T3/T4 - A/R 50. boost ~ 0.5 bar
TIAL wastegate
Ebay Exhaust manifold + 2.5" straight pipe
Turbo Ibiza muffler
Greddy type s BOV
P28 street tuned
RC550 injectors
S20 B000 tranny
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Old 05-01-2016, 08:14 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Why only pull 0.8 degs
Go all the way to 1.25 and see if your problem go away.

Yes you lose a little power but hell running lean makes the most power but also blows the motor.

You say its tune but its not if you cant run the boost you want.

I had a problem where my car was breaking up and reading lean when i got close to read line.
Adding fuel didnt work. So i started to think.
It was showing lean because it was a rich misfire.
WB dont read fuel they just read the o2 left. So if the mixture is to rich to blow the oxygen isnt use up so it shows lean.

Long storry short, i lean it out and then afr drop back into the 11s then i tune it out.

So read your plugs @ wot when it breaks up.
And retard your timing some more.
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Old 05-01-2016, 08:40 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I'll try to retard and lean it a bit, sounds intersting. If I want to run the motor with more aggressive timing, what should I do? Water injection? Anything else recommended?

Thanks!
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Old 05-01-2016, 11:22 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Yea water/meth
But no need to. I doubt your making tht much power that you need to run it.
Just have the timing correct and the motor will love you for it.

Fuel needs time to burn, rushing it to make power only stresses things out more.

Most people add water/meth when pump gas cant do it. This is after they aready got the timing correct or cant pull it anymore
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Old 05-01-2016, 01:18 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Ok, I understand your point. I'll try what you say, I just hope the motor will make it up to 22 psi. Right now I'm boosting only 10psi.
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TIAL wastegate
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Turbo Ibiza muffler
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