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Old 01-12-2016, 09:39 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default D17A2 running more boost?

I just finished my turbo d17 project and it runs great.

Build:
Stock block D17A2
Stock head bolts
.42/.48 turbo
Log manifold
2.5" downpipe
2.5" IC piping and FMIC
38mm wastegste
310cc injectors
Walbro 255
OEM Exedy clutch
AEM FIC
AEM UEGO

It is tuned with primary O2 disconnected to throw it into open loop. IAT is zip tied to its harness.

Right now, it is tuned for 10 psi. AFRs are 11 or richer through the full range. Timing is pulled 1 degree/psi. Stock map is clamped at 3v (atmospheric). My basemap actually had the car running max rich on the WB before I tuned it.

Besides head gasket failing, is there any reason I shouldn't push more boost on my setup? I'm anxious to throw 12 psi at it. I could use some experienced opinions to be sure.
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Old 01-12-2016, 09:50 AM   #2 (permalink)
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how much power is it making? do you have a dyno sheet?
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Old 01-12-2016, 10:29 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Tune it right first.
Right now you have a hack job. Your iat wlshouldnt be hanging.

And its not about psi its about hp.
Lets say 300hp will bed rods.
You dont wanna go above that.
So you can run 5psi or 25psi as long as it doesnt reach the breaking hp of the motor.

Also gotta make sure the rest of your setup supports the extra boost.
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Old 01-12-2016, 11:24 AM   #4 (permalink)
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The issue is your head bolts. Replace with ARP and a oem MLS gasket. You wont be able to make more then like 160 whp with those injectors, which stock d17 internals should be able to handle no problem.

You can run boost higher until you are maxing out your injectors, which wont be long.... and dude, MAP and IAT are super essential to getting your fueling correct...

Last edited by jbreaks; 01-12-2016 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 01-12-2016, 06:59 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CandyRedRC46 View Post
how much power is it making? do you have a dyno sheet?
Estimated a bit under, if not, 200 whp. It has not seen a dyno yet.

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Originally Posted by xile6 View Post
Tune it right first.
Right now you have a hack job. Your iat wlshouldnt be hanging.

And its not about psi its about hp.
Lets say 300hp will bed rods.
You dont wanna go above that.
So you can run 5psi or 25psi as long as it doesnt reach the breaking hp of the motor.

Also gotta make sure the rest of your setup supports the extra boost.
I'll fix the IAT as soon as possible. I know the capabilities of the motor rely on hp and not psi. I should've mentioned I estimate about 200 hp, based on other similar setups/turbo sizes. D17 internals have been pushed to 300 hp so that's my limit for internals.

I was wondering if any other issues would come up with my setup?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbreaks View Post
The issue is your head bolts. Replace with ARP and a oem MLS gasket. You wont be able to make more then like 160 whp with those injectors, which stock d17 internals should be able to handle no problem.

You can run boost higher until you are maxing out your injectors, which wont be long.... and dude, MAP and IAT are super essential to getting your fueling correct...
Thanks! Head bolts , OEM gasket, and injectors are now on the list. Would rod bolts be a good idea?

Is there something wrong with clamping the stock MAP? It's clamped at 3v so the stock ECU doesn't see boost; it operates for all vac. The FIC has an onboard MAP that I use to reference for fueling. I thought clamping the MAP was a common thing.
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Old 01-12-2016, 07:41 PM   #6 (permalink)
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God it sounds like late 90s turbo honda tuning all over again, you have your map check valve, now all you need is your rising rate fuel pressure regulator and your rosary.....
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Old 01-12-2016, 10:41 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I doubt stock D17 internals can handle 300hp very long. They basically have the same rods as a d16 and even skinnier rod ends. I would keep it at 10psi or less now till you save up and get your stuff together you need to make it work properly without it self-destructing.
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Old 01-13-2016, 09:12 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Man your piggy back is intercepting and altering your MAP signal and trying to trick the ECU into fueling based on this fake signal. The thing is the ECU also adjusts ignition timing based on MAP, but the timing input signal are also being altered by the piggyback... This is simply the wrong stock d-series to be trying to turbo, at best your tune will be a mess. I urge you stick with what you have and just get the car running decently in it's current state. If you want to make any decent power you should turbo a d16z6 with a chipped obd1 ecu. I had to go through a "piggyback system will work to tune something" stage as well.. Now I run megasquirt ms3x.
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Old 01-13-2016, 03:34 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelEspinoza View Post
God it sounds like late 90s turbo honda tuning all over again, you have your map check valve, now all you need is your rising rate fuel pressure regulator and your rosary.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirty d View Post
I doubt stock D17 internals can handle 300hp very long. They basically have the same rods as a d16 and even skinnier rod ends. I would keep it at 10psi or less now till you save up and get your stuff together you need to make it work properly without it self-destructing.
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Man your piggy back is intercepting and altering your MAP signal and trying to trick the ECU into fueling based on this fake signal. The thing is the ECU also adjusts ignition timing based on MAP, but the timing input signal are also being altered by the piggyback... This is simply the wrong stock d-series to be trying to turbo, at best your tune will be a mess. I urge you stick with what you have and just get the car running decently in it's current state. If you want to make any decent power you should turbo a d16z6 with a chipped obd1 ecu. I had to go through a "piggyback system will work to tune something" stage as well.. Now I run megasquirt ms3x.
Thanks for the input guys. I'll be turning it back down to 8 psi. The injectors were maxing out. Jbreaks, I see what you're saying. I took off the clamp so it'll read to maximum boost. I'm just going to stick with the current setup and save for K-Pro. I got too excited by boost, haha.
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Old 01-13-2016, 06:46 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbreaks View Post
Man your piggy back is intercepting and altering your MAP signal and trying to trick the ECU into fueling based on this fake signal. The thing is the ECU also adjusts ignition timing based on MAP, but the timing input signal are also being altered by the piggyback... This is simply the wrong stock d-series to be trying to turbo, at best your tune will be a mess. I urge you stick with what you have and just get the car running decently in it's current state. If you want to make any decent power you should turbo a d16z6 with a chipped obd1 ecu. I had to go through a "piggyback system will work to tune something" stage as well.. Now I run megasquirt ms3x.
Fic
You can pull timing and adjust fuel map, if you install it correctly and tune it.. i ran one fo over 2 yrs without problem. Switch to neptune for more control.
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Old 01-13-2016, 07:50 PM   #11 (permalink)
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@xile6

I actually read through your FIC guide many times before jumping into this. If my stock MAP sensor and ECU are known to handle up to 10 psi, do you still recommend I set up a clamp like you did?
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Old 01-14-2016, 04:04 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
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@xile6

I actually read through your FIC guide many times before jumping into this. If my stock MAP sensor and ECU are known to handle up to 10 psi, do you still recommend I set up a clamp like you did?
Thats readable limit.
Breakable limit is probably higher. I ran 12psi without problems.
But it should be good for more, before the sensor itself breaks and stops working.

Also in my guide you need the IAT hook up it controls timing. O2 map set for close loop and tip in.
You afr is a bit rich. Your end up with more fuel in your oil then oil.
11.2:1 is the richest id go. I aim for 11.5:1 with the fic, with my neptune setup i run it lleaner since i have more control over things.


Also max boost of the fic is like 24psi. I wouldnt push it much past 15psi due to the way it retrads. Tiiming.
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Old 01-14-2016, 09:48 AM   #13 (permalink)
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At the end of the day any piggy back system is only manipulating sensor voltages in a crude attempt to have your ecu select a cell on the stock maps that more accurately suits the actual fueling and timing needs of your engine. The problem is that the stock fuel and timing tables on the ecu are absolutely not correct for your airflow temperature, density and resulting fuel mix. Using a piggy back it is possible get to the car to operate on a different injector size yes, but you are leaving huge amounts of power, efficiency and reliability on the table. I'm saying you should just be happy with what you've got and not spend any more money on injectors or a bigger turbo unless you are willing to spend some money on a proper management system where you can write the actual fuel and timing maps appropriately. Neptune or ecu chipping is not possible in this case because the D17 ecu has a microprocessor in place of the standard 28 pin chip used on obd1 ecu's.
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Old 01-14-2016, 11:41 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbreaks View Post
At the end of the day any piggy back system is only manipulating sensor voltages in a crude attempt to have your ecu select a cell on the stock maps that more accurately suits the actual fueling and timing needs of your engine. The problem is that the stock fuel and timing tables on the ecu are absolutely not correct for your airflow temperature, density and resulting fuel mix. Using a piggy back it is possible get to the car to operate on a different injector size yes, but you are leaving huge amounts of power, efficiency and reliability on the table. I'm saying you should just be happy with what you've got and not spend any more money on injectors or a bigger turbo unless you are willing to spend some money on a proper management system where you can write the actual fuel and timing maps appropriately. Neptune or ecu chipping is not possible in this case because the D17 ecu has a microprocessor in place of the standard 28 pin chip used on obd1 ecu's.
Ahhh, not really
The piggyback is locking in the last cell and letting you tune off of that.
The injectors are size by percent of stock injector pusle.
Which doesnt give you full control but it works without problems.

If your thinking about the afc which is crap and jumps around the map sensor voltage. Then your be 100% right
Yes there is better tuning solutions, but if you have to stay obd2 for emission then it is the best way to go.

And i think with the 01 -05 civic you couldnt do much for tuning.
I think hondata made something but not sure.
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Old 01-14-2016, 05:38 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Kpro is the ECU by Hondata for these motors. It is standalone, the best, and the correct way to tune a boosted D17. I'll be investing in that next.

I do agree that I'm just going to work with what I have. I am going to fix IAT then tune it for 10 psi with 480cc injectors. Thanks, guys!
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