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Old 09-08-2015, 08:30 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Heat Soak (IAT/ECT Relationships)

Anyone else having issues with heat soak from a turbo on a D series? I think all the heat coming off of the turbo and manifold is heating the radiator and hose right next to it and increasing the ECT or at least inhibiting the cooling effectiveness of my radiator.

When it gets these higher IAT's I am seeing some engine knock and runs like a**, so I think I need to also retard timing a bit using the IAT compensation tables in Neptune...

I also notice that the IAT rises quite a bit and was seeing 140+ IAT after a few hard pulls in third.

Anyone know if decreasing IAT will effectively lower the temperature of the entire system (ECT included)? I want to reduce both IAT and ECT temperatures.

I already have a gates low temperature thermostat, as well as an oil cooler and still having heating issues, oil temps get up to 220+, same with ECT and IAT reaches as high as 140+ in 75 degree weather. I added in some aluminum sheet on the right hand void side of the half sized radiator to help funnel air flow into the radiator. I also wired up a switch inside to turn the fan on whenever I need to even though I replaced the fan switch a while back with a new one. Water pump is also new, radiator is a MIshimoto Half Rad with thin fan and shroud.

After all this still having heating issues, my headgasket is fine; not burning any coolant, no oil in the radiator, etc.

My plan:

1) Heat wrap the charge piping after the intercooler to prevent heat soak from re-heating the cooled inter cooled charge. (the ramhorn manifold and downpipe are already wrapped)

2) Open up the front bumper grille so more airflow can hit the intercooler (done)

3) Cutting open a vent in the hood to help let some heat out of the bay when the hood is closed.

4) Possibly setting up another pusher fan on my radiator.

5) Looking into a C02 intercooler or water spray system to help cool the intercooler more.. Anyone try this?

Dei 080108 CRYO2 Intercooler Sprayer Kit 10 lb Tank CO2 | eBay

Any tips/advice would be good, thanks.

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Old 09-08-2015, 12:59 PM   #2 (permalink)
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What are ambiet air temps like where you live? Im pushing 400whp and dont have any issues with high ECT's or IAT's. With ambient temp around 90 degrees, my IAT's stay around 100 degrees. My ECT's always stay around 185 unless I am sitting in traffic and highest ive seen them is 190. I dont know what my oil temp is, but I dont have an oil cooler. I am also running an oem thermostat.

My radiator is a generic 3 core. The downpipe is like 2mm from my radiator. I have my downpipe heat wrapped. What size is your intercooler? This is the size I have Cxracing Fmic Intercooler Kit for Civic D D16 B16 B18 88 00 | eBay

Are you only seeing high temps when driving hard? What are the temps like just cruising? Do you push coolant out into the overflow? Your headgasket could be blow even if you arent mixing oil and coolant.
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Old 09-08-2015, 01:08 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Where is the IAT located on your setup?

If it is still in the stock manifold location than I would move it to the charger piping just before the TB.
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Old 09-08-2015, 02:02 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dj_justice View Post
What are ambiet air temps like where you live? Im pushing 400whp and dont have any issues with high ECT's or IAT's. With ambient temp around 90 degrees, my IAT's stay around 100 degrees. My ECT's always stay around 185 unless I am sitting in traffic and highest ive seen them is 190. I dont know what my oil temp is, but I dont have an oil cooler. I am also running an oem thermostat.

My radiator is a generic 3 core. The downpipe is like 2mm from my radiator. I have my downpipe heat wrapped. What size is your intercooler? This is the size I have Cxracing Fmic Intercooler Kit for Civic D D16 B16 B18 88 00 | eBay

Are you only seeing high temps when driving hard? What are the temps like just cruising? Do you push coolant out into the overflow? Your headgasket could be blow even if you arent mixing oil and coolant.
It was 90 degrees farenheight last few days, my intake sensor is located yes in the stock location - should I move it? If so, why?

My IAT peaked at 141 degrees when I went out, and when I pulled back into my driveway was at 136.

ECT's were close to 220, this is after a few pulls at around 21psi in third gear.

I guess possible something with my head gasket but I put a brand new Cometic gasket on when I mated the head to the block (torqued down with ARP head studs too)

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Old 09-08-2015, 02:16 PM   #5 (permalink)
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What about my crappy EBay intercooler, could that be causing the problems? It is a 27x9x3 inch front mount with 2.5 inlets... Was thinking of getting a Mishimoto or a name brand one, I know when I upgraded my eBay radiator to a Mishimoto half size with a good shroud it helped, but boosting around in 90 degree weather seems to be challenging my setup.
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Old 09-08-2015, 02:17 PM   #6 (permalink)
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It could very also be your tune causing you to run on the hotter side. if your running to lean or to much timing.

I been in 110f weather and have had no problems.
I dont know what the IAT where but the ect were normal right around 205f.

Also if your turbo is sitting close to the rad it will vent the heat into it.
So check into heat wraping and a turbo blanket.
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Old 09-08-2015, 02:23 PM   #7 (permalink)
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My intercooler is about the same size so I dont think that would be a problem as long as yours is bar and plate. Im also boosting 21psi (garrett 57 trim) in 90 degree weather and my ect's never rise. You might have too much timing. How do the plugs look? What are your afr's and what is your timing like? Im running 11 degrees advance I think up top with e85 and 9 degrees with 93 octane.
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Old 09-08-2015, 03:00 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Shit, I see IATs of 160-165 with a W2A intercooled M45. Granted, my intercooler manifold isn't the best design ever...

In turboedit I use IAT compensation to pull timing when the IATs get high. Not using any ECT compensation though. Just pull some timing dude, stop the knocking. 220 ECT isn't bad man, that's about what stock is before the fan turns on.
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Old 09-08-2015, 03:10 PM   #9 (permalink)
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A leak in the charge pipe can cause high IATs. Even if it's reading high from the sensor being in the intake manifold it should start to come down fairly quick once you get into boost unless your intercooler isn't very efficient. I have overheating problems too but the IATs are never really crazy.
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Old 09-08-2015, 03:22 PM   #10 (permalink)
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i have d16z6 style iat in my charge piping right before the throttle body and in 90-100 F temperature i see at least 120F under the hood when in town, on the freeway i think it normally drops to probably 108F. if you have the iat on the intake manifold the manifold absorbs alot of heat and that sensor never has the chance to cool down so look into moving it into the charge pipe.my ect temps get up to 195 just idling and i think 208F is the highest i have seen it so far.

i think your ebay intercooler is fine, im running an ebay intercooler for years now (if i remember correct its a 27x5.5x2.5) and i have no issues
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Old 09-09-2015, 03:51 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dj_justice View Post
My intercooler is about the same size so I dont think that would be a problem as long as yours is bar and plate. Im also boosting 21psi (garrett 57 trim) in 90 degree weather and my ect's never rise. You might have too much timing. How do the plugs look? What are your afr's and what is your timing like? Im running 11 degrees advance I think up top with e85 and 9 degrees with 93 octane.
Running at 12 degrees BTDC, retarding ignition about .75 degrees per PSI of boost according to the maps.

It is a D16Y8 head on the motor so I went with the stock timing for the most part.

What sort of radiator do you have? I imagine also right next to the turbo and manifold. The plugs look a white to light brown color, which I think is normal?

Air fuel ratios I aim for 12-12.5 when boosting and WOT, light acceleration low 13s, cruising 14-14.7. I know running too lean can make it hot but I am pretty anal about keeping those AFR's down.

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Old 09-09-2015, 09:51 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Running at 12 degrees BTDC, retarding ignition about .75 degrees per PSI of boost according to the maps.

It is a D16Y8 head on the motor so I went with the stock timing for the most part.

What sort of radiator do you have? I imagine also right next to the turbo and manifold. The plugs look a white to light brown color, which I think is normal?

Air fuel ratios I aim for 12-12.5 when boosting and WOT, light acceleration low 13s, cruising 14-14.7. I know running too lean can make it hot but I am pretty anal about keeping those AFR's down.
At that boost level I would richen it up some. I keep mine around 11.5. Your timing should be good.

This is the radiator I have Tri Core Full Aluminum 3 Row Radiator 92 00 Honda Civic EG EK Del Sol Integra DC | eBay

I have no shroud for it. Just a slim fan.

Your plugs will tell you a lot about the tune. Do a pull and check the plugs immediately after. Take a picture if you can and post it up here.
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Old 09-09-2015, 10:06 AM   #13 (permalink)
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my 99% factory 97 dx reads over 130 degrees IAT, and its just dangled over the brake booster since I got rid of the factory cracked up airbox that goes over the throttlebody.


BTW, exhaust wrap that is rated for 2000*F is CHEAP on ebay.

a 3 inch thick radiator halfsize is $100 ro so also. Large increase in cooling ABILITY over factory.
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Old 09-09-2015, 01:04 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Shit, I see IATs of 160-165 with a W2A intercooled M45. Granted, my intercooler manifold isn't the best design ever...

In turboedit I use IAT compensation to pull timing when the IATs get high. Not using any ECT compensation though. Just pull some timing dude, stop the knocking. 220 ECT isn't bad man, that's about what stock is before the fan turns on.
How much timing are you pulling in what IAT ranges? 160-165 seems CRAZY high.. Is it more or less trial and error until it doesn't knock at those higher temps? BTW I am running 94 Octane w/Meth Water injection.. Only knocks when it gets HOT, partial throttle it seems.. that being said I am still tuning it to run properly.

Everytime I've taken it out so far, at the end it is entirely heat soaked and knocking due to the tune and I feel like my car is a wounded animal limping back home or a fat guy who just tried to run a 10k, I'm going to try and pull even more timing once IAT's reach past 120.
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Old 09-09-2015, 01:06 PM   #15 (permalink)
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my 99% factory 97 dx reads over 130 degrees IAT, and its just dangled over the brake booster since I got rid of the factory cracked up airbox that goes over the throttlebody.


BTW, exhaust wrap that is rated for 2000*F is CHEAP on ebay.

a 3 inch thick radiator halfsize is $100 ro so also. Large increase in cooling ABILITY over factory.

I have the Mishimoto Half Size aluminum rad.. the manifold is wrapped, I ordered a turbo blanket today as well (PTP - http://ptpturboblankets.com/T3-Turbo...ck-000500.html)
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Old 09-09-2015, 01:26 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Where is the IAT located on your setup?

If it is still in the stock manifold location than I would move it to the charger piping just before the TB.
I was going to suggest this.

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Shit, I see IATs of 160-165 with a W2A intercooled M45. Granted, my intercooler manifold isn't the best design ever...

In turboedit I use IAT compensation to pull timing when the IATs get high. Not using any ECT compensation though. Just pull some timing dude, stop the knocking. 220 ECT isn't bad man, that's about what stock is before the fan turns on.
160 lol, when we were tuning a non-IC JRSC it was seeing 180-200!
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Old 09-09-2015, 05:08 PM   #17 (permalink)
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How much timing are you pulling in what IAT ranges? 160-165 seems CRAZY high.. Is it more or less trial and error until it doesn't knock at those higher temps?
I'm not an expert by any means...but I did stay at a holiday inn last night.

160-165 isn't high, not for a M45 supercharger...but I digress. The general idea is that you either enrich the fuel mixture or pull timing...or both. The tuning process IS trial and error. Keep looking at your AFR, keep listening for detonation and adjust accordingly.

IAT compensation helps protect you when the ambient temp is high.

I'll put my map up in a minute. I'm probably running too much timing as I think I can hear some light detonation with my fancy new det can.

Perhaps you can post your ignition map too?
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Old 09-09-2015, 11:37 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Im looking at this a different way..

Moving the IAT sensor to the charge piping isnt going to change the temp of air temp hitting the valves causing knock and such. Whats the AFR's when your getting these high temps?

Now if I read this right, you pushing 20ish lbs thru a cheap intercooler. I had a mishi Z line pushing 14 on a super60. not much air mass being pushed thru, but my IATs were around 120. And the mishi warranty was excellent.
I also used a generic sunshade cut into strips wrapped around the cool charge to prevent heat soak. Works awesome actually. But I also had a thermal intake mani gasket, and thermal TB gasket to keep the air from heating up before it hit the valves.

My IAT sensor was in the manifold. I also disconnected the coolant line to the TB as Im in Florida and dont need my TB warmed up.

I did whatever was necessary to make sure nothing was heating up the air before it hit the valves.

Another thing to look at is your slim fan choice. theyre cheap and dont push much air. I bought a Mardyne 1500CFM unit and fits perfectly on the Mishi 1/2 size rad. Fucin thing sounds like a hair dryer. But my coolant temps stayed at 180 no matter how hot it was outside.

Xenocron Tuning: Maradyne 13" Reversible Slim Fan #[slim fan]


So my theory is, once you gain control of your cooling needs, then go change your timing based on the upgrades/updates
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Last edited by Esotericimage; 09-09-2015 at 11:39 PM.
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Old 09-10-2015, 07:27 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Fan shrouds also help a ton. And don't forget ducting.
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:04 PM   #20 (permalink)
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The thermal energy in the intake air is nothing compared to the thermal energy in the exhaust, so reducing your IAT's may do very little. You need to find the source, not band-aid a symptom.

1) shield direct line of sight between radiator & hot exhaust parts
2) Fan shroud to pull air thru EVERY fin
3) SPAL fan for the best performance; Maradyne is over-rated but should be sufficient; ebay fans are worthless
4) obd1-style bolt-in IAT reads manifold's heat more-so than air temp
5) too much timing retard heats up your exhaust & turbo big-time

If fixing your coolant issues doesn't help, either the turbo is maxed out or you may have excessive timing retard. In the end, if you aren't detonating at those IAT's then they're livable - you simply have to check motor health more often.
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