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Old 09-02-2015, 05:07 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Advice on tuning when doing a pull

Hi

I'm having issues tuning the boost section of my map and wanted to ask a couple of questions of people with more experience.

I'm running a D15b Vtec with a TD04HL-15G with internal wastegate and Crome and Freelog to tune. 450cc DSM injectors and stock fuel pump and rail pressure. I have a PLX wideband kit gauge and sensor.

"forgot to add I'm using an ostrich 2.0 for tuning and the crome version is 1.5.3 as I couldn't get 1.6 to make a map which would let Freelog work."

I've got the part throttle part of my map running really nice both around town and at 70mph (cruising) AFR reads around 14.7 I plan to lean this out a bit later on to get better mileage but not worried about that for now.

I've been trying to do some pulls in my car however it seems to be running super rich according to the gauge but lean according to the numbers recorded in freelog. (I do have the standard issue with freelog that the values it records are 0.5 leaner than the values on my gauge. I've just been accounting for this when I modify my map.)

To do a pull I've been getting into 3rd gear at a low'ish rpm maybe 2500rpm and then flooring it, I have to admit I'm not sure if this is right or not

The car builds boost stupid quick and has been hitting 11psi according to my gauge, this is higher than I want so I've lengthened the accutator rod on the turbo wastegate. Another question here is, is there any science into how many turns equals 1 psi or something like that? I'm wound it basically all the way out as I only want to make about 8psi as I have stock internals. Is there a way to tune each psi by setting the actuator so the max I can make is say 3psi at any rpm and then tuning that column and then shortening the rod and tuning 4psi etc?

I was wondering if I'm doing something wrong with how I'm doing a pull and also what should I be using as a tip-in value in crome? It does seems that it makes me hugely rich when I put my foot down and then leans up to like 13.5 and then gets richer and richer until the gauge bottoms out at 10.

so the sequence would be driving along at 14.7, floor it drops to about 10-11, goes up to 13.5 ish and then goes down to 10 or so as the rpm's rise then chicken out cos its made too much boost and is too rich, obviously this all happens quite quickly.

The values recorded in Freelog all seem to be above 13, some as high as 15 which doesn't seem right as I thought that would kill my engine?

Sorry this has turned into quite a long post but any help/advice would be great, I've tried changing the turbo efficiency multiplier as mentioned in a lot of guides without too much success.

Last edited by Turambar; 09-02-2015 at 07:02 AM. Reason: extra details
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Old 09-02-2015, 06:38 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Old 09-02-2015, 08:42 AM   #3 (permalink)
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to start take your wastegate actuator off of the flapper arm, this will keep it from spooling and help you get your full throttle sorted out .

or pay the kind man at the local dyno a visit...



you are not changing the psi the turbo will make by lengthening the rod .

Last edited by robgoof; 09-02-2015 at 08:44 AM.
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Old 09-02-2015, 09:41 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Hi

Finding a tuner near me that will touch a turbo honda or a honda full stop is tough, especially one which does not want to install their own piggy back ecu and charge for that too.

As with changing the psi or the turbo, granted my wording might have been a bit off but I think in essence this is what the wastegate controls.

As changing the length of the rod changes when the wastegate opens, and as you have said with the wastegate disconnected aka open the turbo does not spool. So if I set the wastegate to open at say 8psi, when it opens at 8psi the turbo will stop building anymore pressure, until the pressure drops below 8psi and the wastegate starts to close. So I'm assuming the wastegate is always wavering around the psi you set it at and isn't a case of being constantly open to the right amount to stop the turbo making more power. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I do like your idea of disconnecting the actuator rod as this will let me tune the bottom left hand quarter of my map, where I'm out of boost at higher rpm's. Although in theory with the actuator connected so the turbo can spool the engine will never be in these parts of the map. (is this correct)

I'm not trying to be purposely be awkward I like doing stuff myself where possible and understanding things fully helps towards that. So thanks in advance for your patience and guidance.

PS if anyone is close to Colchester in the UK and has experience tuning with crome and wants to earn a drink I'd be glad to pay if you'll give me some tips along the way
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Old 09-04-2015, 11:07 AM   #5 (permalink)
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A few things.

Your wideband is calibrated properly and thus reading air fuel correctly?

How is your wideband fed into the ecu, what input did you use?

Once the above question is answered, then you can determine the proper offset for your wideband voltage and make what it reads on the gauge match freelog, but only after answering the first question.

Last post your rom, so we can look at what you have done and how its setup.

After this we can probably better assist you, also stop fiddling with the wastegate for now you could go the wrong way and boost spike way more than you ever wanted. for now setup a boost cut.
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Old 09-04-2015, 12:47 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Hi

I'll try to answer your questions

The PLX wideband kit is self calibrating so I can only assume it is reading the correct values, it goes fully lean when the engine is off but power is on. Its a LSU 4.9 sensor.

The wideband is into D14 on the ecu (white and black I believe)

I have an offset of 0.04 in crome which makes the software match my gauge although I cannot find where to put an offset in freelog (maybe I'm being blind?)

I've tried to attach my current bin as it stands, at the moment the car starts and idles completely fine, end up at an AFR of 14.7

It is pretty conservative my ignition is retarded by 1.25 degrees per 1 psi of boost.

As for the wastegate I did lengthen the rod and it seems to now max out at 9psi although I have only been able to get to about 4-5k rpm in 3rd.

As I'm using crome 1.5 I cannot seem to set a boost limit I don't know if this is a pro feature?

Thanks for the reply
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Old 09-04-2015, 03:20 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turambar View Post
Hi

I'll try to answer your questions

The PLX wideband kit is self calibrating so I can only assume it is reading the correct values, it goes fully lean when the engine is off but power is on. Its a LSU 4.9 sensor.

The wideband is into D14 on the ecu (white and black I believe)

I have an offset of 0.04 in crome which makes the software match my gauge although I cannot find where to put an offset in freelog (maybe I'm being blind?)

I've tried to attach my current bin as it stands, at the moment the car starts and idles completely fine, end up at an AFR of 14.7

It is pretty conservative my ignition is retarded by 1.25 degrees per 1 psi of boost.

As for the wastegate I did lengthen the rod and it seems to now max out at 9psi although I have only been able to get to about 4-5k rpm in 3rd.

As I'm using crome 1.5 I cannot seem to set a boost limit I don't know if this is a pro feature?

Thanks for the reply
While D14 can work for a wideband as input it limits max voltage to 3.8 volts. D10 can be used with 0-5 volts if you remove R136 & R138 from the ECU.

Boost cut can be added to your rom by going to plugins>enhancements>Add Extra Features. It will show up under the options of the rom after.

Now as for your rich spikes, you may need to adjust you tip-in to keep it from doing this.
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Last edited by gearhead98; 09-04-2015 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 09-04-2015, 05:27 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robgoof View Post


you are not changing the psi the turbo will make by lengthening the rod .
I think some companies sell wastegates that do just that. An adjustable arm when shortened will relieve pressure on the wastegate daiphram and partially open the flapper and thus slows spool and also lowers boost pressure and vice versa when the arm is lengthened
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Old 09-04-2015, 11:20 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Hi

Thanks for the replies I'll look for boost cut under the options, what does it do exactly? Does it disable the spark at a certain boost level or fuel or both?

And I've read about the voltage limit of 3.8 but as this just limits the lean side of things to 17.6:1 I wasn't too worried about it as I don't every want to be that lean, is there any other value of using D10? Is it more accurate?

The shame about lengthening the rod on the actuator is it seems to increase the lag which I had read about, its not too bad though.

Currently I'm still tuning my low cam with vtec disabled, I would like to get the high cam working at some point.

Thanks again
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Old 09-05-2015, 04:09 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evo_lucian View Post
I think some companies sell wastegates that do just that. An adjustable arm when shortened will relieve pressure on the wastegate daiphram and partially open the flapper and thus slows spool and also lowers boost pressure and vice versa when the arm is lengthened
slowing the spool
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Old 09-05-2015, 05:42 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I have a mini tuning guide in my sign you should check it out.

But basically for the low boost. Put it into 3rd and WOT once you build a few psi (3 or 4psi) back off the gas.
Take your readings.
Now do the same thing at higher rpms.

This will help fill in the low boost tables.

Then for high boost you simple start at a low rpm and run it til redline. Please do je care ots not leaning out in boost. I like a nice 11.5:1 for all boost cells, then you can fine tune it from there. Everyone likes a different AFR for boost, so to each there own.

And make sure your wideband gauge and software are reading correctly or your give your self a headahce trying to tune around that.
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Old 09-05-2015, 09:40 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Stop using Crome and freelog, spend some money on Neptune or S300 and never look back.

That is my advice from a guy whos been tuning for 10+ years.
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Old 09-05-2015, 03:25 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I agree but i am of the opinion that one can get huis feet wet with crome and then move on to the expensive units like hondata, neptune. In my case with USD conversion rate + import duties neptune would cost me about $600-$650 USD easily.
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Old 09-05-2015, 05:18 PM   #14 (permalink)
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You can find crome dealer license for like 30 bucks. The gold bins are so much better than the standard ones.
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Old 09-06-2015, 04:06 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I actually have a crome 1.5.3 dealer license, some say its the most stable version of crome
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Old 09-06-2015, 10:32 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I will say it again, ditch that program and use something that you have to pay for.

"You get what you pay for"


Or continue to be cheap and get bad results.
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Old 09-11-2015, 05:12 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Hi

Thanks for the feedback everyone, personally I actually quite like crome it seems to do what I want it to with the ostrich.

As far as it being the "cheap" option I wouldn't say that is exactly true it still cost me the price of the ostrich and datalogging cable.

I did look at an S300 but for what I want I couldn't justify the price. Not when my whole car isn't actually worth very much.

I have heard people mentioning gold bins, with the version of crome I have I can create a gold bin but cannot save it although I could put it onto my ostrich, what are the main differences which make it better than a normal P30 base? I'm sure I can google this and I will but as you've mentioned its loads better just wondering what are the bits you like and think are helpful?
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Old 09-11-2015, 07:56 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Gold bin allows you to datalog inside crome. You will have to make a total new tune as the numbers in the fuel map represent milliseconds. It is not that way on a P30 map.
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Old 09-11-2015, 07:58 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I had issues with freelog putting in wack numbers if I got close to the 3.8 volt limit. I have had a lot better success with gold maps.
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Old 09-11-2015, 08:04 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xile6 View Post
I have a mini tuning guide in my sign you should check it out.

But basically for the low boost. Put it into 3rd and WOT once you build a few psi (3 or 4psi) back off the gas.
Take your readings.
Now do the same thing at higher rpms.

This will help fill in the low boost tables.

Then for high boost you simple start at a low rpm and run it til redline. Please do je care ots not leaning out in boost. I like a nice 11.5:1 for all boost cells, then you can fine tune it from there. Everyone likes a different AFR for boost, so to each there own.

And make sure your wideband gauge and software are reading correctly or your give your self a headahce trying to tune around that.
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