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Old 02-17-2012, 04:18 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Does a BB turbo make enough of a difference to justify the price?

Is a BB center section worth it on a small GT2860-sized turbo?
Does it really make a big difference in spool/throttle response?
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Old 02-17-2012, 04:34 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Not just that, but reliability. They are less prone failure due to heat or cooked oil. But they are also more expensive to rebuild. They do spin faster and easier. Usually easy enough for about a 500 rpm difference no matter the size of the turbo. The gt28rs disco potato is a great, extremely fast spooling turbo that is used primarily in the Nissan world on Sentras and 240s
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Old 02-17-2012, 04:36 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I've had both. Using a dbb gt3582r now. Dbb for life!
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Old 02-20-2012, 04:18 PM   #4 (permalink)
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The dyno difference is not the main reason to use a BB turbo. Driving on the street/track where transient response matters more is where a good BB turbo will completely change the feel of the car.

However, on small turbos, it's not that much of a difference. I'm running a T25, and that thing just spools so fast. (Yes, it dies out on the top end.) However, the difference would be more apparent between a T3 sized turbo with and without the BBs.
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:28 PM   #5 (permalink)
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BB vs Twin Scroll?

On a GT28RS.
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Old 02-20-2012, 05:35 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Acid_Beaver View Post
The dyno difference is not the main reason to use a BB turbo. Driving on the street/track where transient response matters more is where a good BB turbo will completely change the feel of the car.

However, on small turbos, it's not that much of a difference. I'm running a T25, and that thing just spools so fast. (Yes, it dies out on the top end.) However, the difference would be more apparent between a T3 sized turbo with and without the BBs.
Couldnt have said it better myself
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Old 02-20-2012, 06:12 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Yes it helps alot if you can afford it,
No it doesnt, if you cant afford it lol.

On a serious note, i had a ebay ching chong, and then upgraded to a true garett t3 dual BB CHRA and the difference is large, but the output numbers are the same, but the prices are very, very different.
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Old 02-20-2012, 07:29 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Personally I don't think they are worth it but it depends on several things. Budget being the biggest one and the turbos use. If it is a dedicated track car then yes. If you plan on running insane PSI then yes (BB units do not have thrust bearings and are far superior at handling thrusting then journal bearing turbo).

I have had both a GT2560R and T28 with the same compressor, turbine, turbine AR, and compressor AR as the GT2560R (basically a GT2560 without the ball bearings) and the difference was very minute. It did spool a bit faster but it also seemed to run out up top by the same margin. The non BB held better at redline. Now a larger turbo not really designed for a smaller motor it makes all the difference however some manufacturers have made journal bearings turbos that respond very good like the BullsEye turbos.

If you are deadset on the GT2860RS then I would buy it but if you want save some money and get a turbo that internally is the same minus BB buy the Big T28 that Forced Performance makes for the 4G63T equipped Eclipse etc. The compressor is identcal as is the turbine. The only difference is the housings and it uses journal bearing.

There are benefits to having the Journal bearings as well. Like the fact if it wears down then you can have it rebuild for a lot less then GT2860RS. Rebuild cost is $200 compared $500+.
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Old 02-20-2012, 08:32 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhamrick View Post
Personally I don't think they are worth it but it depends on several things. Budget being the biggest one and the turbos use. If it is a dedicated track car then yes. If you plan on running insane PSI then yes (BB units do not have thrust bearings and are far superior at handling thrusting then journal bearing turbo).

I have had both a GT2560R and T28 with the same compressor, turbine, turbine AR, and compressor AR as the GT2560R (basically a GT2560 without the ball bearings) and the difference was very minute. It did spool a bit faster but it also seemed to run out up top by the same margin. The non BB held better at redline. Now a larger turbo not really designed for a smaller motor it makes all the difference however some manufacturers have made journal bearings turbos that respond very good like the BullsEye turbos.

If you are deadset on the GT2860RS then I would buy it but if you want save some money and get a turbo that internally is the same minus BB buy the Big T28 that Forced Performance makes for the 4G63T equipped Eclipse etc. The compressor is identcal as is the turbine. The only difference is the housings and it uses journal bearing.

There are benefits to having the Journal bearings as well. Like the fact if it wears down then you can have it rebuild for a lot less then GT2860RS. Rebuild cost is $200 compared $500+.
I'll agree that for smaller turbos, the BB thing isn't too "needed." Once you start to venture into the land of turbos that hold torque to elevated RPMs, though, I think that the reduced transient response makes for a better "feeling" engine on the street.

This is why BW killed the small frame TS housing, as they said that the results were that the cars were showing that on the smaller turbos, the TS housing wasn't needed at all, and just added extra complexity and cost to the system for very little, if any benefit. I still wanted one because I am more concerned about other things than JUST transient response, though (like being able to build the engine more like a NA engine and utilize scavenging and increasing the intake to exhaust pressure ratio of the engine in order to maximize efficiency off boost), but, nothing is going to change their minds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sxysweed View Post
BB vs Twin Scroll?

On a GT28RS.
Both? ATP makes a T3 TS housing for GT28 turbos. heh It's NOT cheap, though, on top of a new turbo. If you find a used one, it would be fun to have.

This is why I am going to eventually use an EVO 9 turbo. The cost to benefit ratio is high, IMO. I would rather put work into a TS setup, as I believe that the benefits of the TS housings are manifold (pun intended). I can put together a complete exhaust side from head to exhaust tip for less than the price of one new GT2871R with the TS T3 housing from ATP. That means, all tubing, flanges, wastegate (emphasis on non-plural, which seems to piss people off, but, whatever), downpipe, flex, v-bands, cat (I always run cats), mufflers (I am thinking three in my next system), hangers, and maybe a fancy tip.
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Old 02-21-2012, 05:15 AM   #10 (permalink)
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ive used countless t28's turbo they are a awesome piece of turbo brilliance ive made 350hp on these countless times theres no need to change anthingg about em or if you want something betta a t2860s are great as well building a twin turbo d16y8 with 2 of these should make a very swift setup
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:07 AM   #11 (permalink)
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ive used countless t28's turbo they are a awesome piece of turbo brilliance ive made 350hp on these countless times theres no need to change anthingg about em or if you want something betta a t2860s are great as well building a twin turbo d16y8 with 2 of these should make a very swift setup
Which T28's have you used? You have dyno's?
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:20 AM   #12 (permalink)
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i personally didnt think it was worth it.

i got a journal bearing 6262 and i love it.
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:29 AM   #13 (permalink)
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DANZ- The 6262 is a turbo I have never seen a person complain about. They are very good designed turbo and are extremely durable. They offer both excellent response considering its size and power potential.

Acid Beaver- Have you considered a BullsEye turbo yet? There is the S2B and it is twinscroll and is also comparable to T3T4 in size. I think I have one somewhere that uses an O trim turbine and the compressor is close to T4 50 trim. Its max output is around 45 lb min (or 450hp). They are said to considerably better spooling turbos then then the T3T4 equivalents.

Also the T3T4 50 trim and 57 trim that GoAuto sells are units. You may be able to get the split housings in them and they produce very linear power.
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Old 02-21-2012, 09:52 AM   #14 (permalink)
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personally ive 3 AGP 50 trim DBB turbos fail within 3 months of install. this was on the same srt engine so oiling could have been an issue but AGP did the install... one reason i wont go DBB is the price of a rebuild and journal bearings have never been to slow spooling for me.

the ball bearing turbos are nice for "dog fighting" and track driving (road race). drag racing i see no purpose, this is just my opinion. my journal bearing turbochargers work fine for what i do except the TBR. transient Boost Response as someone mentioned earlier. the interia of the turbo for it to overcome itself and start spooling isnt bad on my f22. but on my D it took a lot longer, thats where a ball bearing setup would have come in handy. during a "dog fight" where your cruising at high rpms and waiting for eachother to take off, you get into boost a lot and back out, loading the turbo for extended amounts of time. etc. its more fun to race from a roll with no flagger. but harder on the turbo. thats where i want a DBB...
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Old 02-21-2012, 03:21 PM   #15 (permalink)
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i used tha garrett turbo from a sr20 im not a fan of nissans but using a garrett bb turbo was the best thing they eva did for the sr engine otherwise its just a crappy motor
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:19 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Acid Beaver- Have you considered a BullsEye turbo yet? There is the S2B and it is twinscroll and is also comparable to T3T4 in size. I think I have one somewhere that uses an O trim turbine and the compressor is close to T4 50 trim. Its max output is around 45 lb min (or 450hp). They are said to considerably better spooling turbos then then the T3T4 equivalents.
I haven't, mostly because that is way too much power for my goals. I am pretty set on using a custom manifold with an Evo IX turbo, external wastegate (singular, yes, I know, I know, that's dumb, etc.) and some other fancy stuff to do this with my ZC:



That is perfect, IMO. Truly flat torque in a usable range. Should be way more run that running torque-spike specials that spool at maybe 5K. The manifold will likely be more expensive than the turbo. For an experiment, I think that is a much better option.

I couldn't find anything by Bullseye labeled S2B. I saw that they now sell the BW S256, which is cool . . . but way too big. heh
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