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Old 01-21-2016, 02:56 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Input on my ignition map

Would like some input on my ignition map.

Intercooled M45 supercharger @ 6-7PSI
D16a6 - Crower rods, rollerwave pistons (9.3:1 comp)
Web 148e/273 camshaft
Turboedit NG63-based ROM

Using a det can, I hear what appears to be mild detonation under these conditions:

2700-4000RPM @ 5-7PSI
~11.5:1 AFR
110 degree IAT

I pulled about 4 degrees of timing in the affected areas but I still hear what I believe to be detonation.

Was hoping to get some input on the relevant portion of my ignition map. Basically just looking for someone to say "Hey dumbass that's wayyyy too much timing" or "that's a reasonable amount of timing for your conditions".






Any input is appreciated, thanks guys.
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Old 01-21-2016, 03:05 PM   #2 (permalink)
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It's a start.

Are you pulling timing when your IATs get hotter?
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Old 01-21-2016, 03:25 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Yes, it's the same as when I got the basemap from you.



It's been cool outside lately though so IATs haven't gotten above 110 while I've been playing around with it.
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Old 01-21-2016, 03:46 PM   #4 (permalink)
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seems quite conservative actually, pull a degree across the those map spots where you think you hear it and try a few pulls to see if you still hear it.

for reference, I was running 18 degrees at 10 psi on a stock d16z6 with a greddy TD04 setup on pump 93 without any issues

could just be mechanical noise or something
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Old 01-21-2016, 04:39 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoebox_civic View Post
seems quite conservative actually, pull a degree across the those map spots where you think you hear it and try a few pulls to see if you still hear it.

for reference, I was running 18 degrees at 10 psi on a stock d16z6 with a greddy TD04 setup on pump 93 without any issues

could just be mechanical noise or something

Thanks, this is exactly the type of input I was hoping for. I'm beginning to think it's a mechanical noise and not detonation since I've already pulled about 4 degrees of timing with no audible change in the sound through the det can.

The plugs don't show signs of detonation either.
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Old 01-21-2016, 05:24 PM   #6 (permalink)
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maybe time for a nut and bolt session.

first step, loosen all mounting bolts and nuts, even on brackets. Just one or two full turns.

Loosen any heatshields and wire/harness brackets and holders.

Fire up the motor, and when idle sits under 1k rpms, tighten everything you can.

This sometimes gets rid of noises of "stress", especially on stiffer mounts.

Then kill the motor. Do a visual inspection for any metal parts that might vibrate enough to "slap" or "tap" anything.

Very mild misfires can sometimes sound like detonation. Check plugs for bits of metal. Even better if you can go beat the hell out of it, and shut it off quickly, and yank a plug to see if any metal is on there that could potentially get burned off with normal combustion events.

If you are due for an oil change, might be worthwhile to also spring for an oilpan gasket, Yank a cap off a rod, push rod up carefully, and pull the upper rod bearing and check for any scoring or "denting"

Seems a bit extreme overall, but at least you would minimize possible false signals
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Old 01-21-2016, 05:39 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Timing advance should dip in that range. That is where you would generally make peak torque, and detonation is most likely to occur/be audible. Post a datalog of the timing during a pull. It should start high, have a dip at the rpm described, and then come back up a little.
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Old 01-22-2016, 09:24 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Dip the entire map down around 3500 in timing, watch for AFR changes.

Better be running Shell or Chevron Premium
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Old 01-22-2016, 10:18 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheToaster View Post
Dip the entire map down around 3500 in timing, watch for AFR changes.

I'll pull another degree or two and try it out

Better be running Shell or Chevron Premium

I'm running 93 octane exxon with Archoil AR6200
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Old 01-22-2016, 08:24 PM   #10 (permalink)
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You have more than a degree or two of slop, sometimes up to +-9 degrees.

1-2 gear high RPM on and off throttle, make sure to walk your CSB daily.
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Old 01-23-2016, 06:59 AM   #11 (permalink)
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What do you mean by "slop"?
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Old 01-23-2016, 07:51 AM   #12 (permalink)
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It's a supercharger so it's never going to be as care-free as a turbo. You may get boost earlier, but it's not a free ride. A good tuner friend of mine said that most Honda maps are okay up to ~4000, after which you should be adding timing - in crazy amounts for "vanilla" motors like sohc's.

If you think it's detonation, pull a lot more to see if it goes away. Just don't do it for days, too little timing causes high EGT's but it usually misfires before that. It's possible your brain is creating the noise, or you're simply misinterpreting the sounds.

Quote:
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What do you mean by "slop"?
The timing is based off the cams, which can flop around a bit due to the belt. Since it spins at 1/2 crank speed, any slop is doubled.
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Old 01-24-2016, 12:14 PM   #13 (permalink)
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D series Need a lot less timing than B series.

We have fast pistons that move more distance in the same angle..

Your timing looks too linear, should increase to 3300 range, almost flatline to 5000 (Peak Tq) , then add it back in (Tq Dies).

Can we see a Dyno of this engine?
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Old 01-25-2016, 04:49 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Yeah, the original map was not as linear, I just used this as a test to see if pulling the 3-4 degrees of timing made any difference.

No dyno yet, I was trying to do some basic street tuning to ensure that there was no detonation before spending the money to rent the dyno.

I think the sounds I'm hearing are mechanical noises. I'm going to make a few changes to the det can setup to insulate the rubber hose anywhere that it could contact anything else. I'm also going to try to reduce the length of the hose. We'll see.

Thanks for the input guys
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Old 01-26-2016, 11:42 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Pics of det can setup?
And who's gonna tune your car, Noribuilt ? H-Car ?
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Old 01-26-2016, 01:46 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I used Danz's det can design.

https://www.d-series.org/forums/diy-f...e-det-can.html


I plan on using Noribilt's dyno but I'll be tuning it myself
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Old 01-26-2016, 04:46 PM   #17 (permalink)
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In for anything I can learn...
I've had my JRSC ED HB since '98 and in it's current config running E85 since ~2006. I only use the car Apr-Oct as an occasional city/parts chaser so I've never bothered with a dyno. I pick away at "optimizing" the Zdyne tune every year with only observation tools (wideband display, J&S Safeguard, instruments).
Last "season" I tried crazy timing, as HiRoller put it. 31 + base timing @ 9psi;7400 RPM. I know E85 is a different animal but the A6 seems to love it as the J&S (are they around anymore?) hardly lights up like it will on our 91 octane with much more conservative timing...E85 is getting harder to come by though. It's now a 22 mile round trip to the nearest station.

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Old 01-26-2016, 08:55 PM   #18 (permalink)
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You didn't mention running E85 in your initial post, that changes everything. E85 will require more advance, and the A6 head isn't as finicky as some of the other head designs.

Build a det can. You can do it with a stethoscope or electronic (I went with electronic). Playing with timing without a det can or a dyno usually doesn't end well. With that said, running E85 and that map I doubt it's detonation you are hearing, but we don't know intake temps or what cells it's using without a datalog.

What do your plugs look like? Take a high res pic of them with the macro setting, it will let you zoom in and see them better... that method showed me things my aging eyes missed.
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Old 01-26-2016, 10:24 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Here is my y8 ignition map. running up to 22-23psi/1,5bar
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Old 01-27-2016, 02:21 AM   #20 (permalink)
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It continues to blow my mind how many high thousand posters still do not have personal experience..

"My Tuner blah blah blah"

WOW

Get some experience
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