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Old 12-19-2015, 06:45 PM   #1 (permalink)
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OK guys, I have a small dilemma and am in need of the d-family. I just recently bought a boosted civic from another member here on DSO, and the car is currently running and tuned on e85. Herein lies the problem. When I bought the car, I drove it back to my town and I filled the tank at the last station that had e85 which is about an hour from me. e85 is not available in my home town and I am getting down towards the end of this tank. Previous owner says car can also run on 93 with no issues. Reputable tuner for retune on purely 93 octane also not close to me that I know of. So, here are the options that I have...


1- Regular 93 octane at any pump in town
2- Non-ethanol 93 octane at a few pumps in town
3- Mix of either of the 2 above with some race fuel like "Cam 2" or equivalent


Car made 360whp at 24psi on e85. Currently running at 18psi. I want to try and keep performance as close as possible with e85 alternative. Please keep in mind that this is not a DD and will only be driven on occasion and to have fun.
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Old 12-19-2015, 06:46 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Mods, please move if this isn't in the correct forum. Thanks.
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sorry i meant as trade for anything in general
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^^^^^^^^Trading Tactics in a for sale forum

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Old 12-19-2015, 07:58 PM   #3 (permalink)
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It's not easy to guess what "lesser" fuel can do, you just have to test it. I'd recommend 50/50 of 93 & E85 or a mix of 93 & leaded race gas. The 50/50 mix would probably only need a slight AFR tweak. 50/50 dilutes it down to ~50% ethanol, which has nearly the same cooling & octane as E85 (this is going off testing by DoE & several universities). The race gas will cool less but offer better anti-knock, so it would require a full retune.

If the bottom end is built properly and not >9:1 CR, 93 will probably work fine but obviously with less power & less boost. If over that CR then you'd need a very safe tune. The key advice for using 93: never trust the actual compression to be near what the previous owner stated. A friend who's an MRI tech just told me about a football player he watched have 2 screws pulled out of the guy's knee because he couldn't even remember what was in his own body.
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Old 12-19-2015, 08:29 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Myself, with E85 getting harder to find and the ratio changing, as can be E70 in the winter months, I'd tune on pure 93 or E10 93, either top tier like Shell or BP.

E85 has its advantages, but only if you can get it consistently. Now you could spend the money and get a sensor to tell the ratio of Ethanol in the gasoline and adjust tune as needed, but that is more $$$.

Where do you wanna spend your $$$?

Local Supra mixes his own. Buys alky and leaded race gas, mixes his own from there. Still not as consistent as VP C85, but how deep is the wallet?
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Old 12-19-2015, 08:44 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Well, car has zeixtronic fuel content analyzer on it already. As far as pockets go they not deep at all but car isn't a DD either, so I could have a pretty consistent race fuel mix without much of an issue. I have a few race shops locally and a couple of gas stations not too far away that sell cam 2 at the pump.
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Old 12-19-2015, 08:59 PM   #6 (permalink)
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93 E10 Shell Premium will get you where you need to me, top off the tank with some toluene or race gas on the hot or race days.

You can Hear the difference, even if it's not detonating, race gas/higher octane will give a better tone. It moves away from the diesel sound as octane goes up. I'm a very, whats the word, observant tuner. I can tell Rich from Retarded and Lean from Advance, not enough, to plenty of octane, with just my ear, and my ass, maybe help from my nose.

It becomes even more obvious with pedal feel. An O2 and EGT will verify your guesses, but wont make a difference to whats actually happening. Some say I'm crazy, but I've had good luck. Maybe they are too daft to know what I'm observing. I used to use a Stethoscope Det Can with an O2 sensor until I became familiar enough to not need them. Lots of time idling in the driveway with the laptop going from one extreme to another. 12:1 idle, 16:1 idle, 5BTDC, 50BTDC, then you can take those observations and apply them to a running engine. The experience is worth more than any tune you could ever pay for.

Remember even the best engine can fail due to poor judgement. Ultimately the decision is yours to make, in the fuel, and the tune. Good luck.
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Old 12-19-2015, 09:03 PM   #7 (permalink)
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The Cam2 stations, how often do they get filled from truck? How often do racers buy it at the pump?

Local Cam2 station, across the street from dragstrip, would fill up the tanks when Cam2 was cheapest headed into winter to sell in the spring/summer. At one point they had water issues getting into the fuel tanks, the Cam2 was effected.
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Old 12-19-2015, 09:09 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I have absolute zero experience with tuning timing and fuel, so this will have to be done at a tuners shop. The extent of my knowledge is going in and monitoring/adjusting settings (boost, 2-step, yada, yada) Eventually I would like to learn but until then I would like to be better safe then sorry. Don't want to give up the current power either though.
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Old 12-19-2015, 09:14 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transzex View Post
The Cam2 stations, how often do they get filled from truck? How often do racers buy it at the pump?

Local Cam2 station, across the street from dragstrip, would fill up the tanks when Cam2 was cheapest headed into winter to sell in the spring/summer. At one point they had water issues getting into the fuel tanks, the Cam2 was effected.
Probably about the same. Stations are in between dragstrip and close to local lake, and all guys with the badass boats and racecars fill up during the summer. Probably not a lot of buying through the winter.
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Old 12-19-2015, 09:18 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Accepting ignorance, Man.
That is Bold and Dangerous, not to mention it gets expensive in a hurry. Sounds like you have room to grow.

You can always tune once they find the top line. Dyno Shops Tune a sliver of the MAP at the very top, and usually interpolate all the shit below it. That's where people blow shit up, All the time. Dyno tunes are not complete, by any means, and it is also ignorant to believe that. Real world loads are very different, than a WOT pull. Tuning never ends, it is a result of your observations taking effect for the betterment of the engine. It's not Dyno Map Setting, it is them finding your maximum and making it safe, everything below is up to the driver/owner.

Where are you, Matt?.... Acid Beave gone with the Wind.. Could learn a lot from him..

"But the Tune was Perfect! Paid $500 and made 478WHP at 8000" Mhmm sure it was.

BTW "Octane" evaporates away with heat. Thats why its so cold. Always evaporating, taking heat away with it. Always, especially in the summer, and even in the stationary gas tank in your car. Octane will decrease over time.
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Old 12-19-2015, 09:21 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Old 12-31-2015, 10:50 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Still not as consistent as VP C85, but how deep is the wallet?
You have any exp. with the VP C85?
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sorry i meant as trade for anything in general
like a dog, a roasted turkey sub, and can of 7up, some skittles, a lamp shade, set of silver ware lol
^^^^^^^^Trading Tactics in a for sale forum

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Old 12-31-2015, 11:16 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Just make sure you get it retuned if you are switching to gasoline from alcohol.
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Old 12-31-2015, 01:08 PM   #14 (permalink)
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https://youtu.be/XEPJo1FN32k
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Old 12-31-2015, 02:14 PM   #15 (permalink)
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So in the end it looks like I will be staying with E85 for now but will have to travel a bit to get my fuel. This is not a DD car and was bought just as a play toy, and may get driven 1X a week if that. I am actually worried more about the gas having evap issues in the tank due to not driving constantly. Thus, I still want to learn as much as I can about tuning so that if I ever do switch I can retune safely.
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Old 12-31-2015, 02:28 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Speaking of E85 and ethanol blended fuels in general, I ran across this earlier today:

ECB-1 (BOOST) Ethanol Content & Air/Fuel Ratio Gauge

Pretty slick setup.
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Old 12-31-2015, 03:19 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Speaking of E85 and ethanol blended fuels in general, I ran across this earlier today:

ECB-1 (BOOST) Ethanol Content & Air/Fuel Ratio Gauge

Pretty slick setup.
Damn thats cool.
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Old 12-31-2015, 03:26 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snm95ls View Post
Speaking of E85 and ethanol blended fuels in general, I ran across this earlier today:

ECB-1 (BOOST) Ethanol Content & Air/Fuel Ratio Gauge

Pretty slick setup.

Yes, this is very nice. I wonder if this sensor also suffers fluctuation due to water, like the one in the vid CripTofer posted earlier?
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Old 01-01-2016, 07:36 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Yes, this is very nice. I wonder if this sensor also suffers fluctuation due to water, like the one in the vid CripTofer posted earlier?
I would never run pump e85/pump gas and trust a sensor. I haven't looked into different sensors or how they actually work, but I don't like the idea of feeding water mixture to my engine and telling it ethanol.
Gas typically will not mix with water in the storage tanks at gas stations. Once you start adding ethanol to gas the water gets absorbed into the mixture.
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Old 01-01-2016, 09:07 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Free water injection, sounds legit to me.
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Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Ford
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.
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