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Old 10-14-2015, 12:13 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Injector voltage offsets

Ok, I have tuned a lot of cars and never had as much problem getting voltage offsets right as this car. I'm using injector nation In900 injectors and used his offset chart, however it's not helping too much. I'm using neptune and my trouble seems to be around the voltage issue. First off, at idle with nothing on, I'm reading 14.0-14.2v output and can get it to idle at 14.7, then I toggle the fan on and turn the lights on and voltage drops to 13.7 and af leans out to 15.8. I then adjust the 12v offset until it goes back to 14.7. When I turn the light and fan off, it is now 14.0 af. I adjust the high side and the story repeats. I'm going to try adding a 13.5v point and a 14.5v point to see if this helps later, but unsure if any of you have had this issue. Not sure if this is a symptom of an alternator going out and not producing enough amps. I can't really tune the car this way as every time the voltage changes the tune changes except under full throttle which is a sign of offsets being off.
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Old 10-15-2015, 11:20 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Well adding a 13.5 and 14.5 point didn't help. Going to throw stock injectors in for a bit to see if it does the same thing
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Old 10-15-2015, 12:39 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Dodable everything else and try it again.

I remember having a VE table cause a problem simailar to this.
It would idle fine then turn on the lights and it lean out.
Turn out the VE tables where messed up.
I believe to low. So it would throw off my adjustments.

Its worth a shot.
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Old 10-15-2015, 03:19 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xile6 View Post
Dodable everything else and try it again.

I remember having a VE table cause a problem simailar to this.
It would idle fine then turn on the lights and it lean out.
Turn out the VE tables where messed up.
I believe to low. So it would throw off my adjustments.

Its worth a shot.
So when I put in stock injectors I had the same issue with oem voltage offsets. I changed the alternator and it got better, but not perfect. I'm using the offsets high profile gave me for his injectors
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Old 10-15-2015, 03:49 PM   #5 (permalink)
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What are your car's specs? Pump brand? FPR? Grounds checked & pump wires upgraded? What min/max voltages do you see? Are you starting with the OEM fuel map?

If you had the same issue with stock injectors, it's probably not the injectors. One problem I find a lot is re-using a previous fuel map. It is common to see people mess with the fuel map instead of latency settings (especially if they couldn't get the data), or to fix issues inherent to older-tech injectors like popping at idle. That will make tuning latency numbers nearly impossible.

Another issue is poor power feeds & grounds. The pump is also affected by voltage, and commonly starved for power. When the pump's RPM changes, it's flow changes and the FPR may react differently.

Another mistake is to use the incorrect flow settings. If you are guessing on fuel pressure, you may be using the wrong numbers. Most D16 FRP's are 36-38psi, not 43psi. Some people also experience high pressures are idle if their FPR can't flow enough, or uncorrectable fluctuations/pulsations when using crappy china adjustable FPR's.
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Old 10-15-2015, 07:33 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Well, I got it to work for the most part. I changed the alternator and it was way more steady. I also cleaned off more of the painted area around the battery ground. Using 255 pump, stock fpr but gauge reads 42 at idle. Car is running much better and a/f sticks pretty well this time around. I did a few things at once so not 100% sure which fixed it but it's running way better. Still a little fluxuation at idle, but that could be because ef this crower stage 2 cam.
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Old 10-15-2015, 08:58 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Your fuel pressure is the big problem here. With a 255 & stock FPR that 42psi will drop as much as 10psi at light throttle then climb up to 38-40psi at WOT. In other words your base pressure at idle is ~48-52psi & 38-40psi at WOT. If you set latencies for 50psi, flow & latencies will be off for anything besides idle. If you set it for 40psi, it will be off for anything besides WOT.

The reason for the pressure roller coaster is the stock FPR can't flow that much fuel. Fuel is backing up & raising pressure at low duty cycles. I also think your gauge may be off because most stock FPR's see 50-60psi with a 255 pump. About 1/3 of the gauges I've tested were off, especially if it's used & not liquid filled.


You've got 2 options: reduce your fuel pump flow or increase your FPR's flow. If you aren't planning on going over 350whp (275whp with E85), switching to 190lph pump is the best option. The stock 139lph from dohc cars are actually enough for nearly 300whp. You can drill a bypass hole in the FPR, but that's a poor band-aid. You're effectively reducing the max usable pump flow but the extra power it needs is still heating your fuel. The real FPR fix would be to get an Aeromotive, Fuel Lab, or SX FPR. AEM & all non-name china FPR's are junk.

Your 3rd option is to mess with the individual fuel cells for the areas where fuel is backing up, but that will lead to unstable AFR's in those areas. Particularly when the ECT or IAT are below/above normal operating temps.
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Last edited by HiProfile; 10-15-2015 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 10-16-2015, 06:11 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Well it's a brand new gauge, and I have a 255 with stock fpr in my personal car and have 0 issues with the tune. I believe he bought a fpr and just hasn't put it on yet. I'll double check.
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Old 10-16-2015, 03:40 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Some ecu's seem to tolerate it better while some have issues with something as simple as inputting the flow rate 10% high or low.

There's also different FPR's out there. Some obd2 d-series are 36-38psi & don't flow that much while the ITR is set to 43-45psi & flows more. My H23A-V fpr actually gives me 58psi with a stock integra pump.


FYI this is the "china fpr" I'm talking about. If you look, they use a flat square of HDPE or teflon for the diaphragm. It works, but they're very prone to pulsations with large inejectors & quick pressure transitions.
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Old 10-16-2015, 09:28 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I did notice this does not have the bulb on the end, its a y8 fuel rail. If I found one and added it, do you think that would help?
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Old 10-17-2015, 08:26 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I would look into ecu grounding issues, alternator health, battery health, ground corrosion and bad connections.
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Old 10-17-2015, 10:21 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atheworld0 View Post
I did notice this does not have the bulb on the end, its a y8 fuel rail. If I found one and added it, do you think that would help?
It's possible as that's the pulse damper. I've had customers with my larger injectors have issues relating to pulsation when it's removed, particularly when a lower quality (or OEM) FPR is used. Harmonics get introduced, and cylinders can run lean at particular loads/speeds. One customer had 1 cylinder with a lean spot at 2500rpm & 0psi (along with others but that was the worst), while another had an overall lean spot around 5500rpm & 10psi. Both were replicated with a 2nd set of injector, which is why I always ask about the FPR & damper being used.

Generally these harmonic issues cannot be tuned out. Pressure at the injector inlet can conceivably become negative, and even quadrupling duty cycle at zero pressure obviously will not help.

Another thing to note is the fuel gauge won't help with diagnosing pulsations. I have both filled & non-filled gauges on my flow bench, and the filled gauge can show smooth pressure while the non-filled gauge shows highly erratic pulses (if intentionally induced). It's filled to help prolong it's life & help you visually "average" the pressure.
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