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Old 08-28-2009, 08:04 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Hey guys,

I've been reading around and I'm still a little confused on how to wire up my LC-1. I have it all set up except for the yellow/brown wires. One is for wide band signal and one is for narrow band. The problem I'm having is where to wire these to my ECU. The LC-1 is going to be permanently installed and I'm going to be using it as my only o2 sensor. The car is OBD-2b and the ecu is a P06 converted to Vtec. I don't have a gauge for the LC-1. I'm going to be data logging with Crome pro and using that as my wide band read out.

Where do I wire in the wide band signal wire?
Do I use the narrow band wire?
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Old 08-28-2009, 09:15 AM   #2 (permalink)
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https://www.d-series.org/forums/diy-f...e-freelog.html

Make sure you disable the o2 heater circuit.
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Old 08-28-2009, 11:46 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ddd4114 View Post
https://www.d-series.org/forums/diy-f...e-freelog.html

Make sure you disable the o2 heater circuit.
Thanks.

I'm surprised that didn't come up in my search.

When I plug the yellow and brown wires into D14, do I remove the the original wire or just splice into it?
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Old 09-01-2009, 03:43 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I'm still a little confused about the yellow and brown wires. The link says

"Plug the yellow wire (narrow band) into pin D14. Make sure your Crome/Uberdata map is in closed loop and the oxygen sensor heater has been disabled."

It seems that you don't do much after besides make sure your CEL isn't on and that the car idles right.

Then it stats to

"Plug in the WB’s brown wire (wideband output) into pin D14 on the ecu. Insert an open loop chip in the ecu."

Do I just run off the brown wire? It says that your ready to data log after you start running off the brown wire.
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Old 09-01-2009, 06:24 PM   #5 (permalink)
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When you want to datalog, use the brown wire. When you want to drive to the grocery store, use the yellow wire.

If you use the yellow wire (narrowband), make sure the oxygen sensor heater circuit is disabled. If you use the brown wire (wideband), make sure the oxygen sensor is completely disabled (including the heater circuit).
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Old 09-02-2009, 05:44 PM   #6 (permalink)
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When you want to datalog, use the brown wire. When you want to drive to the grocery store, use the yellow wire.

If you use the yellow wire (narrowband), make sure the oxygen sensor heater circuit is disabled. If you use the brown wire (wideband), make sure the oxygen sensor is completely disabled (including the heater circuit).
Awesome. I get it now. Thanks!
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Old 09-04-2009, 11:13 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Ick, no.

Put your grounds on the thermostat housing adjacent the thermostat housing ground, with the exception of the green analog ground wire if you have a logger that takes differential inputs.

Seperating the various ground circuits is explicitly forbidden in the LC-1 installation manual, as well as every other manual for any other piece of gear that comes out of Innovate. Klaus, owner/designer, has written numerous papers on the subject of what ground actually is (vs what car stereo installers and people who spin wrenches think it is), ground offsets, how to correctly install and ground his gear, etc. There is a reason why his gear was designed to be used via a SERIAL connection, to avoid signal attentuation and distortion associated with fragile analog signals, and the analog circuits only exist as a convenience while he tries to convert the market over to what it should be.
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Old 09-04-2009, 01:08 PM   #8 (permalink)
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How much of a difference would it actually make?

From what I remember, the potential difference between my ECU ground and chassis was ~1 mV last time I checked. The wideband measurement already jumps around a lot, so I don't really see how it will matter for 99% of us.
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Old 09-05-2009, 04:46 AM   #9 (permalink)
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It varies directly with electrical load and the condition of your harness (did you measure your ground ofset at 7000 rpms and 90% injector duty?), as well as whether or not you used the chassis as a ground return path for anything significant. Seeing as how Honda only cared about three years/50K miles on an overly rich factory tune, there's a lot of the wiring that isn't correct for a performance car with a precise tune, especially after 15+ years of rot, riceboy rigging, and unibody flex.

The factory wiring for the fuel pump is completely inadequate and typically delivers only ~70-74% of available voltage to the fuel pump. The rest is ground offset losses. Slap a ground to the unibody, like the fuel pump circuit does, and use an ECU ground that's already borderline too small for the device it supports to ground the rest of the wideband like that writeup says to do. Despite the LC-1's manual stating clearly that you should not do this, it doesn't really matter. Does it?
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Old 09-05-2009, 06:03 AM   #10 (permalink)
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did you measure your ground ofset at 7000 rpms and 90% injector duty?
No, I didn't, but that would be an interesting test.

I'm not doubting you, I'm just curious. How much of a difference could you see from the ground offset? 0.05 AFR? An order of magnitude larger?

If it helps, I did follow the manual when I installed mine.
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Old 09-05-2009, 07:50 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Ground offsets vary a lot from car to car. A little corrosion at some point and it could be "fine" at idle and low loads, but will start skewing as boost goes up.
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Old 09-08-2009, 10:19 AM   #12 (permalink)
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My ground offset was huge when i was jacking around with this problem. I was trying to run the WB with narrowband emulation using a non-ecu ground point, and i was getting .5v or more voltage differences from ecu ground to the ground i was using. My problem is that my WB install is not a permanent install, but i was trying to emulate the narrowband using a difference ground offset, and my car would barely run.

It makes a huge difference. save yourself the headache on the permanent install and just use the ecu ground for your WB ground.
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Old 09-11-2009, 05:21 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanimalp View Post
My ground offset was huge when i was jacking around with this problem. I was trying to run the WB with narrowband emulation using a non-ecu ground point, and i was getting .5v or more voltage differences from ecu ground to the ground i was using. My problem is that my WB install is not a permanent install, but i was trying to emulate the narrowband using a difference ground offset, and my car would barely run.
If you are using the LC-1 as portable tuning gear that gets thrown on a bunch of vehicles, solder all the grounds into one large clip and stick the ground side on a freshly scuffed thermostat housing.

I rescale all of my Innovate products to the more commonplace 0-5v = 10-20 AFR scale, as I have a couple of pieces of software that use analog widebands but don't support Innovate's canned analog output... and I also set the Innovate to output 2.38 volts (~14.7) during warmup. This allows me to check for ground offsets at KOEO as idle. I can then do part throttles, and (if you don't have a display gauge) I then check Logworks at mild boost levels to make sure voltage-based datalogs and the Innovate serial stream agree. On big power (or at least big boost) cars I check at higher boost a third time. 90% of the time you have no problems whatsoever, and what deviations you do find are typically small and you can tune around the wideband's inaccuracy.

And then there's the discussion about how widebands are time savers, but when it comes time to make power or make safety at WOT they can be liars. Most people can tune successfully without knowing this, but you'll run across a handful of cars where you have to baseline with the wideband and then ignore it - read combustion chamber carbon coat/plugs, observe dyno numbers or ET/traps if at the track, log crankcase pressure as it's a sign of borderline to outright detonation.
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Last edited by Joseph Davis; 09-11-2009 at 05:25 AM.
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