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Old 05-28-2009, 01:45 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Apexi neo tuning

Just wondering if anyone has messed around with one of these on their d16...
I got a d16y8 with my Apexi Neo hooked up. Just messin around with what i know about tuning, and have a little more pull top end but probably nothing much. Just wonderin what others have theirs set at. I can post my settings if that will help anyone?

(fyi, dont get one unless u CAN'T get p28 w/ s300, then its acceptable but still waste of money i think)

Thanks
-Cody
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Old 05-28-2009, 05:21 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Spamody View Post
Just wondering if anyone has messed around with one of these on their d16...
I got a d16y8 with my Apexi Neo hooked up. Just messin around with what i know about tuning, and have a little more pull top end but probably nothing much. Just wonderin what others have theirs set at. I can post my settings if that will help anyone?

(fyi, dont get one unless u CAN'T get p28 w/ s300, then its acceptable but still waste of money i think)

Thanks
-Cody
DIY: APEXI NEO menu walk-through - Honda Civic Forum
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Old 05-28-2009, 05:55 AM   #3 (permalink)
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im a local tuner out here in arizona and those afc's (i think they are god send)
are not bad depending on what its used for...

i set my low throttle (even idle) at about -10. it is leaner and if you monitor things like a/f. egt. etc. then it isnt a problem. i usually get some decent gas mileage even...

i did notice that the stock honda computer for a basic bolt on motor can control clean a/fs. this didnt happen until i removed the cat. with my cat in the a/fs dip a little rich (12.5:1). they are at 13:1 now with the cat removed and breathing mods done...

all of my other hondas ive ever owned responded the same way no matter what stock motor i ran With a stock ecu... (im also in a/z)

for street tuning monitoring a/f sometimes it wouldnt net you maximium power to run a flat 13:1 believe it or not. especially with the afc because im guessing you took out fuel... And a ignition map isnt linear. what you might be feeling by your faster feel is 1 of 2 things... 1) perfectly fine and faster... 2) removing some fuel advanced the timing since assentially the afc is advancing timing also while taking away fuel (if you did) and your not going faster just hearing the motor work harder...

im sure it a mix because stock honda ecus for what most people on here run is sufficient... if you move into a completely different arena..


all in all i would tune out low throttle for some good gas mileage and tune the WOT with a WB02... youll be happy.

even if you boosted the afc will come in handy...

i like it more than an fmu so i would say you CAN use it in the future and if not zero it out or remove the map reading/modifications wires (if you want to beable to read vac/boost just zero it out and hook the input to the afc wire up to the map signal wire (obviously leave the output hanging or you risk the afc controlling the map... again thats if your worried of the afc overruning the ecu when tuned on say a chipped ecu
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:00 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Or you could have just chipped your ecu and bought a ostrich and gave your car a REAL tune for the same price.

I do not like afc's on honda's. It makes no sense to me to hack my car and try and get a tune out of something thats just changing the map sensor voltage before it hits the ecu. Why go through all the trouble to do things the ghetto way when the FACTORY HONDA ECU is more than capable and very easily done so.
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:37 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Or you could have just chipped your ecu and bought a ostrich and gave your car a REAL tune for the same price.

I do not like afc's on honda's. It makes no sense to me to hack my car and try and get a tune out of something thats just changing the map sensor voltage before it hits the ecu. Why go through all the trouble to do things the ghetto way when the FACTORY HONDA ECU is more than capable and very easily done so.
+1 afcs just change the map signal. This may get fuel in order but messes with timing. Remember both ignition timing and injector duty cycle are based of map signal. So is you suck out map signal you advance timing if you add map signal you retard timing. Not to mention in closed loop the o2 sensor is playing hard ball adjusting short and long term fuel trim. You end up like a dog chasing its tail. Not to mention vtec crossover manual set by the afc. So the ecu is not changing to vtec maps when you are in vtec.

I have tuned afcs I donít care I will take the money but thy never end up running smooth as compared to crome or even obdo turbo edit.
afcs.

I would rather change fuel pressure let the o2 take care of cruise and tilt the distributor then run a afc
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:40 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:51 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I would rather change fuel pressure let the o2 take care of cruise and tilt the distributor then run a afc
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:13 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by D_Tuned View Post
Or you could have just chipped your ecu and bought a ostrich and gave your car a REAL tune for the same price.

I do not like afc's on honda's. It makes no sense to me to hack my car and try and get a tune out of something thats just changing the map sensor voltage before it hits the ecu. Why go through all the trouble to do things the ghetto way when the FACTORY HONDA ECU is more than capable and very easily done so.
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+1 afcs just change the map signal. This may get fuel in order but messes with timing. Remember both ignition timing and injector duty cycle are based of map signal. So is you suck out map signal you advance timing if you add map signal you retard timing. Not to mention in closed loop the o2 sensor is playing hard ball adjusting short and long term fuel trim. You end up like a dog chasing its tail. Not to mention vtec crossover manual set by the afc. So the ecu is not changing to vtec maps when you are in vtec.

I have tuned afcs I don’t care I will take the money but thy never end up running smooth as compared to crome or even obdo turbo edit.
afcs.

I would rather change fuel pressure let the o2 take care of cruise and tilt the distributor then run a afc


see this is why our noob population doesnt rise above the usual retarded rate lol.. you guys scare them off with all this ecu talk lol.. bashing their jdm ebay loved afcs lol.. way to go fukas lol
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Old 05-28-2009, 12:59 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I am a retarded rate noob I just know better. Afc hack have their place (in the trash) lol.

No thy are ok If you are using the stock ecu for your engine, have a wide band and are only making small changes. I don’t like using them for boosted engines at all just n/a stuff because then you have to do the missing link and bigger injectors. I have never had no luck with the missing links. I always get the map code.

I shoot for 14.7 to 1 afr at cruise to keep the o2 sensor/sensors happy. I set my cross over to the wot map around 80-90% throttle to keep the short term and long term happy. I shoot for 13/13.5 at wot. I keep the stock vtec point. Depending on what whey I go I will change base timing. If I add about 30% I will bump base timing a degree or 2 if I suck out 30% I let out a degree or 2. It all depends on how the engine responds some time I will leave base timing alone if I hear no knocking. Just all depends on what your set up is.
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Old 05-28-2009, 01:31 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:52 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Thank sleepersedan!

I have been researching this little bugger for a while now. i noticed that most people take away fuel with their map settings for WOT,

ex:

i have seen settings like this on an s2000 and dsm forum. my numbers are lookin this way now (not exactly)

1500
2000
2500
3000
3500 -4
4000 -6
4500 -6
5000 -8
5500 -10
6000 -10
6500 -9
7000 -8
7500 -8

i was thinking you would want too add fuel up top, since more air coming in and out with boltons? i could be wrong. i have tried all positives and all negatives... i do agree that the negatives seem to pull harder... or as you said it could just sound like its working harder....

It seems that the neo has an a/f ratio guage? its staying in between 13.8 and 13.2 throughout the powerband. lean it out.. or ritchin it up some?

ty for all the input. just tryin to learn how to tune this guy for a little more if any power, and keep my motor safe.

If this helps....

D16y8 -
AEM CAI
DC headers
2-1/2" back without cat, Apexi WS2 exhaust

crower stg 2 comin soon.
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Old 05-28-2009, 03:59 PM   #12 (permalink)
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It seems that the neo has an a/f ratio guage? its staying in between 13.8 and 13.2 throughout the powerband. lean it out.. or ritchin it up some?

ty for all the input. just tryin to learn how to tune this guy for a little more if any power, and keep my motor safe.


crower stg 2 comin soon.
even if the neo has a af reading its off of a narrowband which is worthless for tuning.

"and keep my motor safe" haha good luck with that one

and i hope you are planning on converting to a real tuning system before cams.


Im 99% sure you will ignore everything i and anyone else telling you the right way of doing things but i post anyway in the hope that i might just perswade you and save your motor
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Old 05-28-2009, 04:18 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by D_Tuned View Post
even if the neo has a af reading its off of a narrowband which is worthless for tuning.

"and keep my motor safe" haha good luck with that one

and i hope you are planning on converting to a real tuning system before cams.


Im 99% sure you will ignore everything i and anyone else telling you the right way of doing things but i post anyway in the hope that i might just perswade you and save your motor
oh cmon man, take it easy everyone starts somewhere... anways, its a narrowband, im guessing a wideband is the way to go, i'll start lookin into it. In the meantime i'm guessing i'm going to lower my numbers and not go more than a -6 or +6 with the map tuning if i want to keep me motor safe, what'd you guys think?

P.S. Nice car D-tuned! hope i'm there in the near future. its pretty clean too! i have a red coupe with black accents/CF =D

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Old 05-28-2009, 04:22 PM   #14 (permalink)
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oh cmon man, take it easy everyone starts somewhere...
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Old 05-28-2009, 04:31 PM   #15 (permalink)
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im not at all trying to be a dick, just trying to make it understood that a neo should not be plans for making any real power (safely) in the future.
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Old 05-28-2009, 04:44 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Thanks a lot! that was VERY! helpful!

Correct me if i'm wrong pls.

taking away Map sensor voltage = lean/advance in timing
Giving more voltage = Rich/retard in timing

so i must use the voltage for the map sensor and a wideband o2 sensor to lightly tune? (if i can call it that) DTuned, i agree with you i should have saved my money for some real software and real numbers. but, this is fun to learn the basics on.
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Old 05-29-2009, 05:45 PM   #17 (permalink)
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taking away Map sensor voltage = lean/advance in timing
Giving more voltage = Rich/retard in timing
Ya you got it. It only get a bit out of hand abour -20 -30 adds a bit to much timing some times. Some times its fine.

Ya a wide band is the way to go. The narrow band is more or less a switch at 14.7 afr.

Narrow band

Wide band


See how The narrow at 1 volt can = any where from 10 to 14 and at 0 volts can = any where from 15 to 20. So a narrow is just used to tell the ecu hay I’m am rich I am lean.

So short and long turn just add and subtract fuel like a wave rich to lean lean to rich trying to keep that nice 14.7. Now the ecu is only looking at the narrow and changing fuel an cruise. The ecu ignores the o2 sensor at wot so the afc is successful at tuning close to wot.

So lets say you let some out at 2000 rpm 30% throttle. It works for a bit but then the o2 sensor sees you are running lean. The ecu adds fuel = fail you just let out some fuel but you still end up with a lower map signal. This still raises ignition.

So that is why I say under 80% throttle shoot for 14.7. Then above 80% throttle shoot for 13, 13.5.

With bigger cams I would suggest crome, hondata, ectune, neptune, uberdata. If you get good with your afc I will be a bit easier to jump into crome and what not.

Ya we all started somewhere. Like I said I still use afc on what ever for some extra cash. What is nice about crome is you can disable all the o2 nonsense and just tune you will have more control and better results.

You need a chipped ecu you let me know. If you are around co. hit me up I will tune it for you.
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Old 05-29-2009, 06:23 PM   #18 (permalink)
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some informative info here, maybe a sticky?
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Old 06-01-2009, 04:08 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuse View Post
taking away Map sensor voltage = lean/advance in timing
Giving more voltage = Rich/retard in timing
Ya you got it. It only get a bit out of hand about -20 -30 adds a bit to much timing some times. Some times its fine.
Quote:
So lets say you let some out at 2000 rpm 30% throttle. It works for a bit but then the o2 sensor sees you are running lean. The ecu adds fuel = fail you just let out some fuel but you still end up with a lower map signal. This still raises ignition.

So that is why I say under 80% throttle shoot for 14.7. Then above 80% throttle shoot for 13, 13.5.
I'm at about -8 max right now at 6k rpm +, wasn't sure how much was too much for my little d. I'll try adding some more negative numbers over the next day or so. But i have to keep that 13 - 13.5 a/f ratio at WOT.That's pretty close to what i am at now WOT, 12.9 - 13.6. I'll work on it to make it a little more stable throughout the power-band. From what your saying it seems that i can only change the fuel amount at WOT, at that 80% throttle and below i am just changing the timing? That makes sense to me.
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Old 06-01-2009, 05:29 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I'm at about -8 max right now at 6k rpm +, wasn't sure how much was too much for my little d. I'll try adding some more negative numbers over the next day or so. But i have to keep that 13 - 13.5 a/f ratio at WOT.That's pretty close to what i am at now WOT, 12.9 - 13.6. I'll work on it to make it a little more stable throughout the power-band. From what your saying it seems that i can only change the fuel amount at WOT, at that 80% throttle and below i am just changing the timing? That makes sense to me.
Yep you can change fuel at lower rpms/ throttle but the ecu will learn around you. Obdo not so much obd1 a little obd2 a lot. Its tricky. You just have to mess with it and see what happens.

Crome. Top map left rpm. Bigger # = more fuel smaller # = less fuel. If you are getting a afc you can get crome. There is a lot more to it but thats the fuel map.

Read up. http://www.xenocron.com/install/CromeGuide.htm
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